Magazine Dimensions

[J.Baker]

Ratmag,

When might you have magazines available for sale for the Savage Axis in 30-06?

Thank you,

Dan

I wondered how long it was going to take - and you all wonder why we end up having to close threads like this. It's called solicitation and it's not permitted outside the classified boards. If you people would stop trying to buy anything and everything someone makes and posts a photo of on here maybe, just maybe, they could complete their R&D work in peace and ultimately bring it to market through the appropriate channels - assuming they want to mass produce it.

[Bryverine]

Could anyone let me know if the inside of the gun where the mag goes looks more like the green part or the blue part?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8509590116_708ae57546_m.jpg

[J.Baker]

Why not just go out and buy one? I'm still confused as to why you're hell-bend on doing this when you don't even own an Axis, and based on your requests you have no desire or intention of buying one.

[Bryverine]

Why not just go out and buy one? I'm still confused as to why you're hell-bend on doing this when you don't even own an Axis, and based on your requests you have no desire or intention of buying one.

I have every desire to buy one: I have a scope, case, bipod already picked out for it, but the funds are low. I don't have the money right now with two kids and a wife wanting to go on vacations three times a year. I just graduated from college less than a year ago so my salary isn't as good as it could be.

I want all this done so I can design a magazine and only have to make minor modifications when I get the gun in the near future. Creo (which I'm using to model) is kinda annoying as far as going back in the model 20 steps and changing something - the less I have to change, the better. I picked up this idea from a friend with a AR-15 who saw printable 30 round magazines and thought it would be a good idea for the gun I want.

[sharpshooter]

Grasshopper....you have many things to learn.
Rule#1. You must have the rifle in your hot little hands first, before you can modify it. Matter of fact, several rifles would be better, they have manufacturing tolerances to deal with.

Rule #2. Building magazines on a computer and building them in the real world are 2 very different things. One of the most time consuming parts to a repeating rifle is getting the magazine to work reliably. The other most time consuming thing is to get the tooling to work flawlessly to produce them, that's why most firearm manufacturers actually farm out that work to specialty shops.

Rule #3. If you can't afford the firearm, how can you afford to shoot it, let alone try to create an expensive part with no experience and no start up capital?


I'm not trying to kick ya in the nuts here, I wish you the best, but it ain't as easy as you think. By the time you get it figured out, Savage will make yet another change.:smug:

[Bryverine]

Grasshopper....you have many things to learn.
Rule#1. You must have the rifle in your hot little hands first, before you can modify it. Matter of fact, several rifles would be better, they have manufacturing tolerances to deal with.
I've read some great reviews on the axis and I'm looking for an entry level 308 that will (assuming a certain amount of skill) be able to hit a 500 yard target.


Rule #2. Building magazines on a computer and building them in the real world are 2 very different things. One of the most time consuming parts to a repeating rifle is getting the magazine to work reliably. The other most time consuming thing is to get the tooling to work flawlessly to produce them, that's why most firearm manufacturers actually farm out that work to specialty shops.
This I understand very well; if the gun doesn't feed, you can't use it. I know 3d printers are not completely repeatable and accurate and you have to account for a certain percent of material shrinkage due to heat. We work with tolerance of +/-.0005" at work and the printer's i've looked at online are usually repeatable to about +/-.005. I do understand different dimensions have different tolerances and I will never know what the manufacturer used.


Rule #3. If you can't afford the firearm, how can you afford to shoot it, let alone try to create an expensive part with no experience and no start up capital?
I've thought through a couple things (not everything, no doubt). The cost of a roll of ABS (1kg) is about $20-30. The cost of spring wire is $2-20 depending on length. Each magazine will use approximately .25kg of ABS and somewhere between 10-20 feet of spring wire. I know that it will probably take a couple to get it to fit correctly and more to get it to work properly. I know time is another HUGE consideration (time=money after all) but it seems like it could be a nice little hobby that might make use of some of my education. :p


I'm not trying to kick ya in the nuts here, I wish you the best, but it ain't as easy as you think. By the time you get it figured out, Savage will make yet another change.:smug:

Thank you for your feedback, I really do appreciate it. I understand designing and actually making things are completely different things. I'm stubborn and love to tinker though, if it takes me a year of messing around with this thing, than it was a fun year. I understand that there is alot that goes into a magazine even after you get the magazine to fit properly into the gun: feed angle; spring load; making sure everything moves smoothly; materials; stress in and on the part; fatigue; the follower has to be designed to move properly; if it breaks, you need more material to make a new one and try again; etc. But i'm just looking for a fun way to design something and say, "Hey, see this 10 round mag? I made it myself and it works freaking awesome!"

[thermaler]

With all due respect--I believe a couple of the attitudes expressed here are not very constructive and border on being negative attacks. As long as someone isn't doing something patently dangerous or stupid--I believe they should be supported in creative efforts. Just because you may personally believe something can't be done--or isn't practical--doesn't mean that it's the same for someone else.

[thermaler]

Could anyone let me know if the inside of the gun where the mag goes looks more like the green part or the blue part?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8509590116_708ae57546_m.jpg

Neither--the way the mag clips in it goes through the bottom slot of the receiver so that the bolt can cycle cartridges from it. I suggest that short of buying one--you visit wallyworld or your local GS and take a close look at how these are built. Better yet, borrow a friend's.

[rjmorel]

Could anyone let me know if the inside of the gun where the mag goes looks more like the green part or the blue part?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8509590116_708ae57546_m.jpg

There is neither blue nor green above the bullet but an open section for the bolt to slide forward and push the bullet forward out of the magazine like Thermaler sorta kinda said. Your mission , should you choose to accept it Bryverine is to get the mag to go up into the rifle and stop the exact distance for the bolt to be able to push out the bullet but not jam into the feed lips of the magazine cause it sits to high in the rifle. The mag is located to the proper hight by the top of the fattest part in all the pics shown here which is the bottom plastic base piece. In the pics above it's the 1.745 dimension in #15. Does that explain it more better ??? I'm all for inventing and trying new things. Thats what build this great country. Just rambling , bored at work .rj

[Bryverine]

With all due respect--I believe a couple of the attitudes expressed here are not very constructive and border on being negative attacks. As long as someone isn't doing something patently dangerous or stupid--I believe they should be supported in creative efforts. Just because you may personally believe something can't be done--or isn't practical--doesn't mean that it's the same for someone else.

If that was directed at me, I meant absolutely no negative attacks, I swear! I am really just looking to see if i can do it. I bear no ill will to anyone that has posted on my thread; this is the most replies I've seen on any place I tried to request information. I appologize if I sounded rude or malicious.

Thank you for your help, my walmarts (all 6 of them) are currently out of stock of everythign except bb guns. Heck, most sporting stores are cleaned out too right now. Next time I get a chance though, I'll take a peek at one on display somewhere. probably should have done that first, huh?

[Bryverine]

There is neither blue nor green above the bullet but an open section for the bolt to slide forward and push the bullet forward out of the magazine like Thermaler sorta kinda said. Your mission , should you choose to accept it Bryverine is to get the mag to go up into the rifle and stop the exact distance for the bolt to be able to push out the bullet but not jam into the feed lips of the magazine cause it sits to high in the rifle. The mag is located to the proper hight by the top of the fattest part in all the pics shown here which is the bottom plastic base piece. In the pics above it's the 1.745 dimension in #15. Does that explain it more better ??? I'm all for inventing and trying new things. Thats what build this great country. Just rambling , bored at work .rj

Oh yeah, duh! ok so what I really wanted to know is if I could bulk up the little lips (like on the blue side) or if there is a wall keeping me from doing so. I'll bulk away to make it a little more sturdy and perhaps make it last longer.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8108/8516376887_38240d244a_m.jpg

[sharpshooter]

Ahhh, pay no attention to him...he trying to point a finger at me. Evidently he does not recognize constructive criticism.

Forget about what the cross looks like, that is not what locates the magazine anyway. The magazine is located by the stock. On the long magazine calibers the rear tab on the magazine hooks over the trigger bracket. On the short models it hooks on the trigger guard, which is slightly longer to accommodate the shorter magazine. Inside the stock are 2 sets of ribs that locate the mag from side to side. You really need to have one in your hands to truly see whats going on.

With that being said, lets talk about the factory magazines. This may be hard for you at this point because you don't actually have one to see, but I will explain as best as I can. The factory magazine has a steel mag box that does the real work, while the cap is just a termination and latch. The stamped box is unique, as it was designed to be loaded 2 ways: from the top as in a blind style box, and from the front like a .22lr magazine. It is easier to load from the front, but if it is installed in a blind mag set-up you have no choice but o load it from the top. The lips are springy enough to allow a cartridge to be pushed straight down and snap over the major diameter. I don't know of any other bolt action rifles that utilize a magazine that can be loaded both ways.

I had quite a conversation with Scott Warburton, the engineer who designed the center feed magazines, and subsequently the Edge/Axis rifles. He started on this new design shortly after the release of the Accutrigger in 2003. By mid 2005 they had already starting changing over from the stagger feed magazine in the higher end rifles. At that point, the magazines available were short action standard bolt face cartridges and long action std and magnum. The .223 and .204 posed a slight problem, and it was all of 3 years later when the first mag came off the press. From then, it took 10 months to de-bug, tweak, tune and correct problems before it was cut loose in 2008.

Before the "Edge" rifle (now the Axis) debuted in March of 2010, I got the inside scoop about a new rifle that was coming out that was a big secret. It was an entry level rifle that costs nearly $75.00 less to manufacture than the basic Stevens 200.

Normally new stuff is at the SHOT Show, but this was held back because they knew that when it made it's splash appearance, they already had 5000 units on hand to appease the requests.

Now that you know a little background, I gonna make you use your brain. Ask your self this question: If this rifle is all about cutting costs, and still providing an accurate rifle, why wouldn't Savage utilize complete poly magazines and save more? Believe me...if they could cut the cost another dime, they would do it....I've seen it.

I can really appreciate your passion and enthusiasm, but I would approach this in an easier way. Savage has the hard part already figured out, and have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it. I would concentrate on the bottom half, it is not as critical as the top. Design and come up with an extension box that snaps on the existing magazine.

Food for thought.;)

[thermaler]

If that was directed at me, I meant absolutely no negative attacks, I swear! I am really just looking to see if i can do it. I bear no ill will to anyone that has posted on my thread; this is the most replies I've seen on any place I tried to request information. I appologize if I sounded rude or malicious.

Thank you for your help, my walmarts (all 6 of them) are currently out of stock of everythign except bb guns. Heck, most sporting stores are cleaned out too right now. Next time I get a chance though, I'll take a peek at one on display somewhere. probably should have done that first, huh?Nope--was meant in support of your efforts.

[thermaler]

Ahhh, pay no attention to him...he trying to point a finger at me. Evidently he does not recognize constructive criticism.

Forget about what the cross looks like, that is not what locates the magazine anyway. The magazine is located by the stock. On the long magazine calibers the rear tab on the magazine hooks over the trigger bracket. On the short models it hooks on the trigger guard, which is slightly longer to accommodate the shorter magazine. Inside the stock are 2 sets of ribs that locate the mag from side to side. You really need to have one in your hands to truly see whats going on.
With that being said, lets talk about the factory magazines. This may be hard for you at this point because you don't actually have one to see, but I will explain as best as I can. The factory magazine has a steel mag box that does the real work, while the cap is just a termination and latch. The stamped box is unique, as it was designed to be loaded 2 ways: from the top as in a blind style box, and from the front like a .22lr magazine. It is easier to load from the front, but if it is installed in a blind mag set-up you have no choice but o load it from the top. The lips are springy enough to allow a cartridge to be pushed straight down and snap over the major diameter. I don't know of any other bolt action rifles that utilize a magazine that can be loaded both ways.
I had quite a conversation with Scott Warburton, the engineer who designed the center feed magazines, and subsequently the Edge/Axis rifles. He started on this new design shortly after the release of the Accutrigger in 2003. By mid 2005 they had already starting changing over from the stagger feed magazine in the higher end rifles. At that point, the magazines available were short action standard bolt face cartridges and long action std and magnum. The .223 and .204 posed a slight problem, and it was all of 3 years later when the first mag came off the press. From then, it took 10 months to de-bug, tweak, tune and correct problems before it was cut loose in 2008.
Before the "Edge" rifle (now the Axis) debuted in March of 2010, I got the inside scoop about a new rifle that was coming out that was a big secret. It was an entry level rifle that costs nearly $75.00 less to manufacture than the basic Stevens 200.
Normally new stuff is at the SHOT Show, but this was held back because they knew that when it made it's splash appearance, they already had 5000 units on hand to appease the requests.
Now that you know a little background, I gonna make you use your brain. Ask your self this question: If this rifle is all about cutting costs, and still providing an accurate rifle, why wouldn't Savage utilize complete poly magazines and save more? Believe me...if they could cut the cost another dime, they would do it....I've seen it.
I can really appreciate your passion and enthusiasm, but I would approach this in an easier way. Savage has the hard part already figured out, and have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it. I would concentrate on the bottom half, it is not as critical as the top. Design and come up with an extension box that snaps on the existing magazine.
Food for thought.;)

Very nice : )

More to the point--If you (Bryverine) could use that fancy gizmo (which to me is kinda like something from Star Trek) to "print" a solid stock that free-floats the barrel, the membership of this forum would gladly send you on an all-expenses paid vacation to wherever you want and throw a hero's ticker-tape parade for you down Madison Ave. : )

[Bryverine]

With that being said, lets talk about the factory magazines. This may be hard for you at this point because you don't actually have one to see, but I will explain as best as I can. The factory magazine has a steel mag box that does the real work, while the cap is just a termination and latch. The stamped box is unique, as it was designed to be loaded 2 ways: from the top as in a blind style box, and from the front like a .22lr magazine. It is easier to load from the front, but if it is installed in a blind mag set-up you have no choice but o load it from the top. The lips are springy enough to allow a cartridge to be pushed straight down and snap over the major diameter. I don't know of any other bolt action rifles that utilize a magazine that can be loaded both ways.

I had quite a conversation with Scott Warburton, the engineer who designed the center feed magazines, and subsequently the Edge/Axis rifles. He started on this new design shortly after the release of the Accutrigger in 2003. By mid 2005 they had already starting changing over from the stagger feed magazine in the higher end rifles. At that point, the magazines available were short action standard bolt face cartridges and long action std and magnum. The .223 and .204 posed a slight problem, and it was all of 3 years later when the first mag came off the press. From then, it took 10 months to de-bug, tweak, tune and correct problems before it was cut loose in 2008.


I can really appreciate your passion and enthusiasm, but I would approach this in an easier way. Savage has the hard part already figured out, and have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it. I would concentrate on the bottom half, it is not as critical as the top. Design and come up with an extension box that snaps on the existing magazine.

Food for thought.;)

Awesome information, I learned a lot about the magazine this way. I was wondering about the design and why there were what looked like holes everywhere: to make it flexible. :o I know metal is far more durable than plastic and if you have the right tools to bend, cut, press, etc. then metal can cost just as much as plastic or less. Thank you for the great information, I think perhaps I'll look into making an extension that works on the bottom as well now. I'll make the final decision when I get the gun because I've already come so far. :p