243 middlested vs 224 tth

[shooter1059]

I'm a new member here and would like to take advantage of the combined knowledge of the members. I have a Stevens 200 .243 action and was thinking of doing a wildcat in .243 Middlested or .224 TTH. I will be using the gun at ranges beyond 300 yards and will be using it on game(antelope and small deer) along with punching holes in paper. I plan on using bullets ranging from 60 to 90 grain. My question is what cartridge will be easier on barrels and just what is the life expectancy of a barrel in the two calibers? What about throat erosion? What velocities and trajectories can be expected? Which round is more reload friendly? Please give your input.
Thanks

[358Hammer]

I do not have the 22 X 243 Middlestead. Opting to modify the 224 TTH into my own design.

1. Barrel life: Like anything else barrel life isn't going to be very good with the larger bullets driven hard. A lot of bearing surface wearing on those bores.

2. Throat erosion: I did not go into this caliber with varmint hunting for rodents in mind. For hunting the species that you indicate you nor I will ever wear a barrel out, if its a quality stainless barrel.

3. I rechambered my first Savage 223 barrels to see what these cartridges would do. With the 1 in 9 twist and the 60 grain partition it flat out electrifies 200+ pound deer.

Neal

[trappst]

Outlaw will be the man with the info on the middlestead....think he's had just about every twist/configuration you can think of.

I've got a 1:12 twist ER Shaw 224 TTH. I've only put about 25 rounds through mine but R-19 got 65g Sierra's to 3500fps with no pressure signs. Deer season started and I haven't been shooting much at all.

A couple things to keep in mind though. If I recall, both chamberings are a case reforming job and not a fireforming deal like an Ackley Improved. I think RCBS makes dies for the Middlestead but not sure of the price....other companies will be pricey. Hornady makes a 224TTH die set for about $50 and it's just fine. I already had a Redding Type S die for the 6mm Rem so that's what I use (with appropriate bushing).

Secondly, depending on how your barrel is throated you probably won't be able to fit those long, heavy bullets into the case and have a repeater with the 224TTH. The standard 6mm Rem will only fit in a short action with fairly short bullets.....an 80 or 90g .22cal prolly won't fit.

Another thing to consider is brass. The winchester/remington 6mm Brass is okay and very useable after sorting. With the middlestead, you'll have the option of Lapua 243 brass.

To shoot the 90's, you'll need an 8 twist

[Apache]

I have both, except my 22-6mm Improved would be like a TTH that has been improved. Burns more powder and gives a bit more velocity.

If you are going to use the 90's you will need a 7 twist. I have a couple of 8 twist barrels and they will not stabilize the 90's...also you can push them hard enough to blow them up. I have blown 80's a time or two. So you won't get the velocties out of them.....I have NOT tried the new 90 thick jacket berger though. (At least I think they make a 90grn thick version) The thick version work very well in the 80grn though. I've had it up to 3700+fps without a failure. I've had the 80 Amax's blow at that velocity every once in a great while....maybe due to barrel wear though. I'm getting close to the end of a Pacnor barrel that I had them make up for the 22-6mmAI...it's the one that will blow a bullet.


Barrel life is short....with either. If you want the speed, you gotta pay the speed devil! ;) It cost barrel life. ;D You can expect somewhere around 700 - 1000 shots depending on how hard you push it. My first22-6mmAI barrel only lasted 550....I use it for forming brass only now....but I didn't know much about how to take care of the barrels at that time.

Mine are built on long actions and have no feeding issues....oh 28" Varmint weight tubes BTW. Fantastic killing power...like hitting a deer with a bolt of lightening. I've only had 1 run for a distance of maybe 50 yrds. The 2 cartridges are very nearly identical for all practical purposes. I'm currently working with a new wildcat based on 6.5x55 Swede Lapua brass that I really like in a 12 twist. I've had the 60 grn Partition to 4100+ FPS with room to spare and it's accurate to boot.

Try one or the other...you'll like it as long as you understand about barrel life. Any other questions I maybe able help with, just ask.

[J.Baker]

Bob Greenleaf saw this post this morning and sent me an email wanting to share this information...guess he forgot his username and password. ;D


Somebody had a question re the 224 Middlestead and the 224 tth. I know a bit about both. My 5.7 BG is very similar to the Middlestead. The 5.7 has the body and shoulder of the 300 SAV and I used 243 brass to get a long enough neck. Hornady has made dies for me. Just run a 243 case in the FL die and you are ready to load and shoot. 55 gr. bullets up to 4,000fps and 80 gr (original intent for competition use) up to 3,300 fps and one inch groups at 300 yards.

The 224 tth is the 6mm REM necked down to 224. I got 3,600 fps with 80 gr. SMK. No good for bullets under 69 gr. A waste of powder. The 5.7 is more useful. I shot 40 grainers at 4,500 fps with 45 gr. of 2520, if I remember correctly.

[shooter1059]

Thanks guys,
But now trappst has raised an interesting point. Will a 243 action be able to handle the longer bullets if I want to use it as a repeater and not a single shot? Will the rounds not fit in the magazine or feed properly? Should I go to the longer action?

[PSEPRO2001]

I have a 224 tth in a long action and one in a short action. The short is not desired for the bullets must be seated deep to put in the magizine. The long is perfect and I would recomend this for using 75 or bigger bullets for sake of getting them to the lands and in the magizine.
I don't know how many rounds I have gotten out of each but at maybe 200 rounds per year they should last about 10 years before I need a new tube.
I love this caliber over all others I have and I know nothing hardly ever walks away from it. I use the 75 Amax's the most and they kill with authortity. Coyotes hate the thought of it coming to the woods. Deer don't stand a chance. I made one shots kills on deer out to 816 yds and would do it again if the chance arises.
SSS made both my bbls and they are great shooters. .226" is the best 100 yd group and 1.3" at 400 yds.
Try the 224 TTH and you will be ssooooooooo happy!!!!!!!

[outlawkyote]

Why not a 22-284? There is good lapua brass available for it.

[308law]

Why don't we here much about the 22-06? Does it go beyond practical case capacity for a 22 caliber bullet, or does it have oal issues in a standard long action with heavy for caliber bullets? I realize barrel life would be horrible but would it be any worse than a 22/6x55AI ,or a 22-284?

[hunter2]

I know this is an old post but thought some might find it interesting. Necked down a 30-06 to nearly an inch. Pac-Nor 26" 1 in 8 with no throat. Using the brass as the throat. A pain to make, but with annealing I am getting 20 loads and still counting. Almost a Clark with a longer neck..Only time I have intentionally damaged a gun. Had an idea that I could get longer barrel life with the long neck. Getting the loads right the gun was fired no less than 3 times. After about the first 100 it was never fired less than 20 and up to 43 per setting. All of this was without letting the barrel cool. Shots 1,453 through 1,500 still went into less than an inch at 100 yds. At 1,600 acc. started went south. 300 rounds were also fire formed in the rifle using cornmeal. 75 gr. swift does amazing things to a deer. Had another made up with a short stock and suppressor for kids to shoot. Every state should allow using a can during youth hunts!

[steveinwv]

I have a standard .243 and get 4100fps out of 55gr Noslers, 3400+ out of 85gr. Speers with a .404BC, and over 3000fps with a 105 AMax. Seat bullets to any length you want in a short action like you have. Stock .243 OAL is 2.71" and magazines usually hold up to 2.85". Barrel life is good, way better than a ".22 anything with a big case". 8" twist barrels are common.

I know it doesn't look like a .224TTH, but it is a better deal from bottom to top and way more common................common.............that's probably the reason it hasn't been mentioned up to now. Oh well.

[phantom]

Apache, What bullet did you find that will go over the 300 yard threshold in a 22-244AI ? I aquired one and am working on getting a bullet to stay together past 200 yards that isn't nearly 80 cents each. I have been shooting the Sierra 80's and 90's and they just won't make it to the 300 yard line without a Rainbow of a trijectory. This is supposed to be the 1/2 Mile .22, but I can't seem to find anything that will go the distance that isn't a Barnes. Mine is a 1:8 Krieger on a Winchester Mod 70 Long - custom stock. If I slow them down they will get there, but I want to be able to get to the longer distances without keeping it under 3k fps . . I have tried some of the Barnes, just to see how they group out to 100 yds. and have some more loaded to give a try as soon as the weather will permit. . . Any info will be much appreicated.

[dcloco]

I run 75 gr AMax's at a nominal 3750 fps out of a 1:8 twist shilen barrel. Can easily push them to 3950, but no need to (and to help save a little barrel life).

H4831 will be your new friend.

[Uncle Jack]

What ever happened to the 45 year old 5.6 X 57 RWS or even the 5.6 X 61 Von Hofe Super Express that came out in 1937? Imagine what they could have done with the powders and bullets we have today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.6x57mm

[phantom]

dcloco, Thanks, I will see if I can find some of the A-Max's localy. I loaded some Barnes and some Bergers (10) that I had and took them to the range yesterday, the Barnes looked really good on one group, and by the book it would be going about 3350, shot a neat little clover leaf for 4 shots, then I pulled one, went high about .5, didn't feel right when it went off and sure enough it wasn't.

From what I see in my Honady book, the A-Max has a BC of .435, that is closer to what I am looking for in a BC. The lower BC's don't seem to stay up as well over the long ranges. My 6mm will shoot the 107 VLD's really well, but the smaller and lower BC bullets fall way short. I am not sure what the BC is on the Barnes is, but they are just too expensive to shoot like I like to. I will say one thing about them though, and I have recovered several from friends animals, they do what they are supposed to when they hit an animal. If I were to just "hunt" with a bullet . . it would be them, they open up nearly picture perfect.

The Hornady book starts off with the H-4831 with the 68 gr. bullet, and suggest the H-4831 SC with the 75 gr., what are you using - the standard 4831 or the SC, it has a little different burn rate . . what is your suggestion? I have both.

[phantom]

Uncle Jack . . Your question about those calibers is - basically they are alive in a different name. 5.6x57 is now the .22-244 (6mm) 2.241 inches, and the 5.6x61 is the .22x06. Basically . . the 06 is a little different but the dim. 61mm comes out 2.401 by my calculations, ("X"mm x .03937 = inches) 5.6 = .2204". There are two distinct .22's in the upper range right now the .22-308 (243) and the .22-244 (6mm Rem) that are kind of dominating the .22 shooting, there are a lot more, these two just seem to be at the top of the mix. Then there is the .22-244 Ackley Improved which I am inquiring about, and I was plesently supprised at how many of them are out there. Some people have been experimenting with them for years, I am just reciently getting into this kind of shooting, and what an interesting field of fire it is. Most people - except those that are really into the long range shooting, don't shoot much over a box of ammo a year and then if it will hit a 10" plate at 100 yards think - boy that really shoots good. But these calibers will shoot into that 10" plate at nearly 1000 yards, and it is a very large target at 500+, and a coke can at 1/4 mile is just a "good target". I'm trying to get this one inside of minute of Coyote at 600 yards with a bullet that will get there . . . ;D ;D

[dcloco]

Prefer to use the SCH4831, but will use what I have on hand.

Also, the BC of any bullet increases and decreases with velocity as well. Bullet manufacturers do not provide the velocity that the BC rating is arrived at.

Of note, I site my varmint/predator rifles in at 300 yards. Using a modified Audette ladder, I also complete this at 200 or 300 yards, depending on caliber.

My 22/6mm AI using 75gr AMax's, groups better at 300 yards than at 100.

[Apache]

Apache, What bullet did you find that will go over the 300 yard threshold in a 22-244AI ? I aquired one and am working on getting a bullet to stay together past 200 yards that isn't nearly 80 cents each. I have been shooting the Sierra 80's and 90's and they just won't make it to the 300 yard line without a Rainbow of a trijectory. This is supposed to be the 1/2 Mile .22, but I can't seem to find anything that will go the distance that isn't a Barnes. Mine is a 1:8 Krieger on a Winchester Mod 70 Long - custom stock. If I slow them down they will get there, but I want to be able to get to the longer distances without keeping it under 3k fps . . I have tried some of the Barnes, just to see how they group out to 100 yds. and have some more loaded to give a try as soon as the weather will permit. . . Any info will be much appreicated.



Since this thread was posted I have built my Bro-in-law a Savage rifle around that particular barrel and he now has it. I started with 75grn Amax's and then the 80grn Amaxs. As you have already found out, Barnes, Swift and the 60grn Nosler partition will do it. Now, I've wanted to try the Berger thick jacketed target bullets but still haven't done it.

There are reports that the Amaxs, Sierra's (never tried them) and Noslers target bullets won't make the trip but I never had any trouble out of them.......but that was a new barrel with only 100 or so rounds through it. I shot them out to 600 without any trouble. Don't know what it will do once it's worn a bit and the fire cracking starts on the throat.

28" Pacnor 3 groove 8 twist is what I was shooting.

I have since developed 2 other wildcats that I like better than the 22-6mmAI......performance wise one of them is identical. I think it's called a 22 Vias......but I'm not sure, not much info can be found on it.

It's a 22BR reamer run deep enough to allow a 6.5x55 Swede case to be necked down and then blown out. The 30* shoulders feed better than the 40* of the AI cases. Although I never really had any trouble feeding the AI rounds either. Case capacity is identical to the 22x6mmAI and I use Lapua brass with BR dies to do all the work. No special die sets needed. It's like a longer version of the 22-243 Middlestead.

[phantom]

Since I looked at the link this morning, I called Hornady and talked to a very nice gentleman that has shot the 22-244 for eons. We went over the reamer and the cases well for nearly an hour, got lots of info from him on what this will and won't do. I have one of the Hornady reloading books (#7) and he was the person that did the data for the 22-6mm (244). He has been shooting the 75 gr. out to 1k yards for years, and says the that it is the best of the bunch and will go the distance even at the higher velocities. He has sent me off in another direction with this caliber, one is what the throat of the barrel is to look like, says that is the most important part of the cartridge and it's ability to shoot accurately.

Why I went to them was the remark above to try the Hornady's, thanks for that info. it was dead on. I am going to get a box of 75 gr. A-Max's and go from there. His recomendation is RE-22 & 25, but says his load work up usually ends with RE-22. Also I am going to try the 4831 SC with them and see which one gives the best accuracy, after all - it can go fast, but it needs to be Accurate first. . . . First things first - A-Max's . . . I am going to quit messing with 85 cent bullets.

[Apache]

RL-22 is what I use.... ;)

BT-DT

I got a T-shirt around here somewhere........ ;) ;D

You'll like this cartridge.

Fixing to post up some pics of some of my wildcats in a bit....