Barrel break in ???

[J.Baker]

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller.

You might just want to check your facts on that. It's true, Hodgdon started out as a simple reseller of surplus military powders after WWII, but things have changed a little over the years and they now own a couple different powder manufacturing companies. This is an excerpt taken straight from Hodgdon's website. ( http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html )



To better serve our reloading customers Hodgdon Powder Company continues to grow. Hodgdon purchased IMR® Powder Company in October 2003. IMR legendary powders have been the mainstay of numerous handloaders for almost 100 years. IMR powders continue to be manufactured in the same plant and with the same exacting performance criteria and quality assurance standards that shooters have come to expect.

In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon. Winchester smokeless propellants, the choice of loading professionals, are available to the handloader to duplicate the factory performance of loads from handgun to rifle and shotgun.

In January 2009 Hodgdon acquired an American icon GOEX Powder, Inc. GOEX has a rich history dating back to 1802 where E.I. Du Pont de Nemours broke ground on his original black powder plant along the Brandywine River in Delaware. Goex Powder, Inc. manufactures black powder used for sporting applications such as civil war re-enactments and flintlock firearms, and is a vital component for industrial and military applications. Located in Minden, Louisiana, GOEX Powder, Inc. is the only U.S. manufacturer of black powder.

Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester smokeless propellants and Goex black powder continue to introduce many new, innovative, technologically advanced and unique propellants to the marketplace. Today, as over the last sixty five years, the success of the Hodgdon Companies depends upon the good will and satisfaction of our loyal customers. Thank you for the trust you continue to give our products; we only hope that they are a part of the reason you enjoy your chosen sport of hunting or shooting.

[squirrelsniper]

I doubt I'll clear anything up, because I've tried it before, but...

1. Whether it's a new barrel or a complete new rifle, clean the bore before ever firing a shot. You'd be surprised what comes out of some of them, especially factory barrels (not just Savage, but all of them).
2. Shoot.
3. When accuracy becomes unacceptable or you just think it needs to be cleaned, clean the bore.
4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 for the life of the barrel.

I've had the opportunity to shoot a lot of new barrels, whether just a barrel or a completely new rifle, and I've tried a lot of stuff just to see if I could make a barrel shoot better. But I have NEVER, repeat NEVER, seen a barrel start shooting better after a certain number of rounds or a certain method of "break-in." You may tweak loads, bedding, crown, or whatever and help the rifle shoot better later on, but as far as the bore's interior itself is concerned, the first few rounds you send through it are as good as it's going to be.

As for cleaning being easier with a break-in... maybe with a factory barrel. But the cleaning typically becomes easier after a couple hundred rounds whether you use a "break-in" method or not. If you want your cleaning to be easier, every 100rds or so just clean the snot out of the bore with JB Cleaning Compound so you get "everything" out of it, but that seems to make even the clean freaks shudder at the thought.

My $.02 (that no one will listen to, except for those who already agree with me).

[Samdweezel05]

Step one: remove new barrel from packing and install on desired action
Step two: drive to range
Step three: Shoot until no more ammo remains
Step four: Go home and clean barrel if you feel like it, either way go shoot it again tomorrow.

I have never done any barrel break in on any of my new savage or aftermarket barrels. I bought them to shoot, not to clean.

[bigedp51]

You might just want to check your facts on that. It's true, Hodgdon started out as a simple reseller of surplus military powders after WWII, but things have changed a little over the years and they now own a couple different powder manufacturing companies. This is an excerpt taken straight from Hodgdon's website. ( http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html )

Hodgdon"s is licensed to use the IMR and Winchester name, the actual powder manufacturing plants belong to General Dynamics Weapons Division. Please look at the MSDS sheets at the Hodgdon's website.

Some of the IMR powders are made in Canada, and some are made in Australia. The H prefix powders are also made in Australia and the Winchester powders are made by St Marks Powder.

Bottom line, Hodgdon's is mainly a distributor.

[darkker]

Darkker,

I haven't heard about ADI and excessive hard carbon fouling. Is this first hand knowledge? Tell me what you can.


You might just want to check your facts on that.


Hodgdon"s is licensed to use the IMR and Winchester name.

Bottom line, Hodgdon's is mainly a distributor.

Bigedp51 is correct. As he stated, LOOK at the MSDS sheets, or call them yourselves; I do have my facts correct.
No, Ace; I don't think it's a stupid comment, they don't make any of it. They are well known in the powder world, for swapping suppliers in true least-costing fashion. Also don't know that they want everyone to know that their powder CAN lead to a fouling problem...

Hodgdon also says this:
http://www.hodgdon.com/new_prod.html - "The technology developed for the U.S. Military that greatly deters copper fouling is now available in CFE223 for your reloads!"
Well, actually that was developed by the French Military in the 1800's, It is a series of Tin compounds, with whispers of a Bismuth compound. Hatcher's Notebook speaks of it's development. It is ALSO true that those compounds(while not in the same amounts) have been (according to my copies of the MSDS) in Win 760 and Win 748 for OVER 20 years! If you mean that CFE was developed for the US military, then yes it was around 10 years ago; GD calls it SMP-842. They developed it for the Non-toxic 5.56 round. - http://www.gd-ots.com/2011%20Brochures/BALL%20POWDER%20Propellants.pdf

Winchester(Olin) sold their powder manufacturing plant in the Early 2000's(few years before they sold their brass cartridge mfg business). Sold to General Dynamics, that plant is in St. Marks, Florida. The IMR plant in Canada is ALSO owned and run by General Dynamics. ALL IMR extruded powder that shows "Made in Canada" is from there, Whereas ALL Winny/Hodgy BALL powder is made in St. Marks. MOST of Hodgy's extruded comes from ADI. Hodgdon DOES NOT MAKE 1 OUNCE of smokeless gunpowder.
So where DOES your powder come from?

General Dynamics (American defense Contractor that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, all Winchester Ball powders, some Accurates, and Hodgdons ball powder)
ATK (American defense contractor that apparently makes all American-made Alliant powders)
Thales (French defense company that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs)
Rheinmetall (German owner of Nitrochemie. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders)
Groupe SNPE (French State-owned. Makes all Bofors (most of the Reloder line, and the Norma line), Vihtavuori, and Ramshot powders via their Eurenco layer)
Interestingly, ATK is now in a JV with G.D. GD is streamlining the running the Radford Arsenal. SO any powder production may have been moved to the GD plants, but I have yet to confirm that.

Doesn't anyone else remember that Win 748 was THEE benchrest powder in the 223 with 55gr bullets; also considered MAGIC in the 308?? Didn't anyone else find it ODD that load info for those cartridges are all but gone? What info that is still available from Hodgy is HORRIBLY low pressure?? Well I noticed, so I called them. They are in a contract dispute with Olin over "who is responsible for what" for the Winchester branded powders. So they posted what was last provided to them, FROM Olin. They were VERY quick to say that the data was "So old, we don't have any idea WHEN it was tested". So the data disappeared.

Apache,
"Hard Carbon" Yes I have first hand knowledge, No not a New event exactly; many folks finally realizing(with bore scopes even) what I have been raving about for years.
I was one of the first folks who jumped on a (Then)brand-new cartridge named the 204 Ruger. Varget was the magic Extreme powder. My groups began to go from touching, to "Where the hell did that one go??!!" Only not just huge groups, there was no rhyme or reason to when or why they would be wild. I used every cleaner known to man, with every brush known to man. I got tired of it and started making phone calls. It was first Sierra that turned me onto the issue, confirmed by Western Powders. At the time(2004-05-ish) Sierra said that the "Newer generation extruded powders tend to cause this hard carbon issue rather quickly, the smaller the bore; the faster it appears". Specifically told that the "extreme" line of powders was a little worse than the rest. The Sierra Tech told me to get some JB bore paste, or other abrasive and scrub until I wanted to cry.
I found what he said I would, after MANY passes I began to see what looked like tiny pieces of flat ball powder. That stuff is as hard as iron!! Most recently it has given a fellow member on Shootersforum, this issue in rings just past the throat on his rifle; IIRC it was BKeith. He actually did verify the issue with a Bore Scope.


I'll take my lashings for the off-tracking now;)

[Apache]

Darkker,

Very nice and thorough explanation. As I understand it the only real cure for carbon fouling is abrasive compounds - JB Bore paste, flitz....Have you found a method to keep it under control?

[Dennis]

I clean a new barrel very well before shooting it, fire a couple rounds, clean again, and call it good enough. I have tried the long break in before. You know, fire one round, clean it, fire two rounds, clean it, fire three rounds, ect. I can't see any difference.

I totally agree with the above. Clean good before shooting, 5 shots, clean again, repeat, then start shooting. I clean my McGowen barrels about every 150 rounds using WipeOut. All are very accurate and I have almost no blue coming out of the barrel after cleanings.

I do believe after 50 rounds the barrel is at it's comfort point.

JMO, Dennis

[darkker]

Darkker,

Very nice and thorough explanation. As I understand it the only real cure for carbon fouling is abrasive compounds - JB Bore paste, flitz....Have you found a method to keep it under control?

Quite honestly, since I switched back to GD's ball powders, I haven't had that problem.
Because of a recent post, BKeith who refuses to change powders, hasn't found anything to work except the abrasives.

[Geo_Erudite]

Best article (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/11/equipment-barrel-break-in.html) on breaking in a barrel

[bigedp51]

Best article (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/11/equipment-barrel-break-in.html) on breaking in a barrel

I hit the reload button three times on your link thinking the page didn't fully load.

Then I realized the page was a photo of a polar bear in a snow storm. :-)

(Very true and very funny)

[bigedp51]

Darkker,

Very nice and thorough explanation. As I understand it the only real cure for carbon fouling is abrasive compounds - JB Bore paste, flitz....Have you found a method to keep it under control?

Below is a quote from the link at the bottom of the page.

"My own 3-groove, 8-twist 6BR barrel has never seen a brush in over 400 rounds and I’ve never used JB, Rem-Clean, or Iosso paste. I clean with wet patches and Wipe-Out only, and the lands are still very sharp, the crown is undamaged, copper fouling is negligible, there’s no carbon problem, and accuracy is as good as new. I’m not suggesting that my methods will work for top PPC competitors, but for the rest of us, the “less is more” approach is worth trying."

Barrel Cleaning Procedures
The Great Debate--Brushing and Cleaning Intervals

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/

[darkker]

Nice reading Ed.
I take exception with the statement #7 about leaving Sweets in the bore. I realize that it is a blanket-statement, and "high humidity" to me is anything over 20%....
The Ammonia will not harm the steel, it WILL attract moisture, and cause rusting and pitting very quickly. A distinction, but still worth the clarity.

I think it is important to specify WHY leaving it in the pipe CAN be an issue, RATHER than saying there is trouble.
In the desert country, leaving it in the barrel overnight has caused no trouble.

[wbm]

I clean with wet patches and Wipe-Out only and the lands are still very sharp, the crown is undamaged, copper fouling is negligible, there’s no carbon problem, and accuracy is as good as new.

Ditto.

Have been using Wipe-Out for two years and have found no reason to use anything else. It works!