Barrel break in ???

[acemisser]

Barrel break-in = total myth and waste of ammunition and cleaning supplies.

Shoot it until the barrel fouls and the groups open up, clean, repeat.

I doubt it is a myth..I see lots of bench rest shooters clean after a 10 shot relay,so there is something to it weather
you think or not..I was told that I would be lucky to get 1000 rounds thru my 22-250....After talking to some barrel
makers and cleaning it as they suggested...No wire brush,solvent or foam cleaner and patchs.I am now going on
a total of 1475 to date...So there is something to it...

[J.Baker]

So just because the persnickety benchrest crowd does something automatically means it has meaning and must be beneficial? Oooooooooooook!

Reality Check: The reason benchrest shooters typically clean after every relay is they also usually shoot several sighters in each relay and in most barrels (from my own experience and that of others) the accuracy will typically start to taper off after somewhere between 20 and 30 rounds. For them, the N'th degree of accuracy is the name of the game so if there's a snowballs chance in hell that doing something might help them cut 1/1000th of an inch off their group size they'll do it and swear by it like it's the gospel.

As for whomever informed you that you'd be lucky to get 1,000 rounds from your 22-250 barrel, they obviously didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Even a fast twist 22-250 Ackley Improved barrel will surpass 2,000 rounds with ease. I have close to 1k through mine now and last we bore-scoped it it still wasn't showing the first sign of any real wear in the throat - and that's pushing 80gr Noslers at 3300fps.

[wbm]

Barrel break-in = total myth and waste of ammunition and cleaning supplies.

Thank you! Have been waiting for a long time for someone that people should listen to say that.


Great shooting Joe. Keep up the not cleaning so often regimen.

Check out Jerry's cleaning regimen. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek053.html

[J.Baker]

I don't know if I'd classify myself as someone to listen to, but that's my opinion and it clearly varies from the typical monkey-see/monkey-do benchrest voodoo. At the end of the day it's your barrel and it all boils down to what you choose to believe and what sets your mind at ease and/or gives you confidence in the barrel's accuracy.

[acemisser]

Check out Jerry's cleaning regimen. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek053.html (http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek053.html)

Interesting reading.....I like his statement about cleaning primer pockets...I seldom clean mine either,unless real crudy....This will get a lot of guys stired up as in another topic,I had mentioned this and got several negative replies on cleaning the pockets..I may have missed it,but did not see who's barrels he is using..This in my opinion makes a big difference in if you have to clean often or seldom..

[acemisser]

So just because the persnickety benchrest crowd does something automatically means it has meaning and must be beneficial? Oooooooooooook!

Reality Check: The reason benchrest shooters typically clean after every relay is they also usually shoot several sighters in each relay and in most barrels (from my own experience and that of others) the accuracy will typically start to taper off after somewhere between 20 and 30 rounds. For them, the N'th degree of accuracy is the name of the game so if there's a snowballs chance in hell that doing something might help them cut 1/1000th of an inch off their group size they'll do it and swear by it like it's the gospel.

As for whomever informed you that you'd be lucky to get 1,000 rounds from your 22-250 barrel, they obviously didn't have a clue what they were talking about. Even a fast twist 22-250 Ackley Improved barrel will surpass 2,000 rounds with ease. I have close to 1k through mine now and last we bore-scoped it it still wasn't showing the first sign of any real wear in the throat - and that's pushing 80gr Noslers at 3300fps.

I shoot in F class open and aganist several 6mmBR's So I guess I could say that it is the F class shooters that said my 22-250 would have a very limited barrel life....I have beat some of them with the home made set up....And living on a some what fixed income,barrel life is very impportant to me...I want to get all I can out of a barrel..I also use not so hot powders to keep the barrel heat down as low as possible and still buck the wind....So I want to keep my barrel clean and if it makes for longer life,then it's worth it..To me anyway..

[Apache]

Acemisser, you seem like a really nice guy and you're learning pretty fast for the amount of time you've been here........but you fail to have the qualifications that Mr Furious and MANY others on this forum do. While I don't want you to stop posting your OPINION on various matters you need to understand that these guys have done this for a VERY long time.......not to mention the relationships they have developed with others that are VERY qualified to give QUALIFIED answers too.

I'm not stupid when it comes to Savage rifles either, but when it comes to these type of things, I yield to their superior knowledge. My experience is more in the wildcat arena and some types of reloading techniques. Even then there are others here that I yield to their superior knowledge.

It's nothing personal, one man knows more about a subject than another. That's life.

Just don't take it personal.

[J.Baker]

I don't know if I'd classify myself as someone to listen to, but that's my opinion and it clearly varies from the typical monkey-see/monkey-do benchrest voodoo. At the end of the day it's your barrel and it all boils down to what you choose to believe and what sets your mind at ease and/or gives you confidence in the barrel's accuracy.

I guess you missed this post of mine Apache. LOL

Believe me, I'm not the Obi-Wan-Kanobi of the gun world and I sure as heck don't know everything there is to know about guns, hunting, shooting, cleaning, etc. - FAR FROM IT! However, I've also been hunting and shooting since I was big enough to squeeze the trigger on my dad's old Ruger Super Bearcat trapping pistol while out trapping fox, muskrats and raccoons with him when I was 4 and 5 years old. In the 34-35 years since then I've learned a few things - some things from personal experience and some things from paying attention to and heeding the knowledge and experience of my betters. I share what I know when the opportunity presents itself, and whether people choose to listen or learn from that information is their choice. I'm not going to try to ram anything down anyone's throat or go out of my way to convince them I'm right as I have better things to do than argue over something I already know for myself.

As I said above, this (barrel break-in) is a very subjective subject and everyone will have their own view and opinions on the matter. If whatever theory someone subscribe to makes them feel a little better and/or gives them a little more confidence in their gun, so be it - keep doing it if that's what works for ya.

My tongue-in-cheek response above regarding the monkey-see/monkey-do benchrest crowd and the habits of many in that shooting circle is based on my own experience and observation. Up until about 10 years ago I'd never even heard of benchrest, much less knew anything about it. I can tell you this though - the rifles I had owned before I knew what it was were just as accurate beforehand as they were after, and even after experimenting with some of the persnickety benchrest processes with my cleaning and reloading regiments I never saw a noticeable change in accuracy to justify all the extra time and work I was putting into it. So, I went back to my old basic, simple routine of not worrying about sorting bullets and cases by weight, cleaning my bore after every shooting session, etc. Know what - the degree of accuracy is still right where it's always been.

[bigedp51]

Many of you have heard the saying more barrels are damaged by cleaning than any other cause.

I collected the British Enfield rifle and every book and manual on the rifle I could find.

After the Enfield rifle was shot two pints of boiling water were poured down the bore followed by a oiled patch on a pull through. This would remove the corrosive salts and any carbon in the barrel.

The Armourers inspected these issued rifles four times per year and if the bore had excess copper buildup the "armourers" mixed up some copper solvent and "they' were the ones who cleaned the bore.

The Armourers did not remove the copper unless the tight fitting bore gauge below would not pass from end to end of the bore.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boregauge_zps441c71fa.jpg

There is no such thing as barrel break in, and all I do on my milsurps and new rifles is give them a squirt of foam bore cleaner and as "FEW" passes with a cleaning rod as possible.

Now how are you going to break in any barrel in the video below. One is smooth as glass and the other is as rough as a cob.

Lilja BoreScope Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

Foam bore cleaner

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/foamclean.jpg

New hand lapped barrel.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/custom.jpg

"Savage" button rifled barrel before and after fire lapping.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/beforeandafter.jpg

Throat of button rifled barrel.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Throat-1-C-RS.jpg

And one inch from the muzzle.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/6inchesfrommuzzle-2.jpg

[acemisser]

All the above comments are valued,no doubt..But I have to say I still disagree with some of them...As I had mentioned in another post,I had talked with the fellows at Hodgon,as well as barrel manufactor's and they all told me that barrel life will be improved with cleaning the carbon out of the chamber,etc...Also the primers can be at fault as well,due the grit from them..I use mostly the foam cleaners and patch's....I did have one rifle in my 60 plus years that would shoot,better if dirty...That was a Winchester 788 in 30/06 caliber..

I appreciate all the replies from you guys..Not saying your wrong or right...I know my 22-250 does shoot a lot better after I clean it..That is after about 50 rounds have been put thru it,But I have never gotten copper out of it..This is a shilen barrel....John

[J.Baker]

John,

The main point I try to convey is that just because something is considered or recommended or has become the norm or has been the norm for decades doesn't necessarily make it fact. If there's one thing I know about guns it's that there's a lot of information out there that's based solely on common popular beliefs and practices that have been perpetuated for generations. For centuries everyone thought the world was flat - no one questioned it, that was the "fact" because it's what everyone had been taught to believe. Then along came someone who challenged that belief and low and behold they proved it wrong and history as we all know it was rewritten. People also used to commonly believe that the sun revolved around the earth, but that "fact" has changed as well.

Barrel break-in is a perfect example of the same in the gun world. Do you know why most every barrel maker post some type of recommended break-in regiment on their website or includes it with their barrels? Ask most any of them and (if they're being completely honest) they'll tell you it's because they got tired of so many people calling asking for one that they just put something together to appease those who insisted they needed it. IIRC it was Dan Lilja who was the first to openly make that confession many years ago, and in more recent years Gale McMillan has been pretty vocal on a forum or two about how the barrel break-in myth is just a way for barrel makers to get shooters to wear out their barrels faster so they have to buy another one.

It's the same thing with the mythical "action screw torque" that so many people here are always so concerned about. I've asked several engineers at Savage about this mystical torque value over the years and every one of them gave me the same answer - they made it up so the gals answering the phones would have a value to tell customers when they called and asked. The truth is it's more important that you are consistent with how tight you tighten your action screws than what the actual torque value is. But you can't tell people that - oh no! That's not what they read in a magazine or what their gunsmith told them or ...well, you get the point. As long as they're tight enough to securely hold the action in the stock and not loosen from firing they're tight enough, but you may find tightening them to a specific value unique to your rifle may have a small effect on accuracy. Find what value your guns likes and then make sure that's what you tighten them to every time you remove the action from the stock.

Biged makes a valid point as well - more barrels are damaged by poor or improper cleaning techniques than any other method out there. The more you clean the bore, the more opportunities you have to do damage.

[stangfish]

Biged makes a valid point as well - more barrels are damaged by poor or improper cleaning techniques than any other method out there. The more you clean the bore, the more opportunities you have to do damage.

I hold testament to that.

[bigedp51]

I "HAD" a large collection of milsurp rifles and got tired of cleaning frosted and pitted bores from the effects of shooting corrosive ammunition. Actually I sold them for two reasons, my old eyes couldn't see the iron sights anymore and I wanted to get some new scoped rifles with "new" bores. Two of the rifles I bought were Stevens 200 and there was "NO" break in and after shooting them they got a squirt of foam bore cleaner and then I let them set for an hour or two. I then used two or three patches to remove the foam and also oil the bore.

If you would go to a AR15 forum you would be shocked at the minimum amount of cleaning done and the large amount of rounds that go "rapidly" down the bore.

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

Let the foam bore cleaner do its work, the foam doesn't have any sharp edges to harm your bore.
Spare the rod and spoil your bore.

Barrel break in is a myth and in our Enfield forums the British would hear how anal we Americans are about cleaning the bore and the Brits would say "Just shoot the Bloody thing". To this day the Brits still pour boiling water down the bore, followed by an oiled patch and call it quits.

Now go pick up the latest Hodgdon's reloading magazine and read about CFE powder (copper fouling eraser) and see the bore scope photos of a copper free bore. The powder puts a chemical coating on the bore that keeps the copper from sticking.

[acemisser]

Is it possible for a wood dowell used to push a patch through to do damage to the bore when run through from the breech?

It is mainly all I use,since I got used to using wood with my black powder cartridge rifle's.....

[acemisser]

The proximity of powder fouling and copper fouling to the bare bore metal sets the stage for bimetallic/electrolytic corrosion, which we interpret as pitting.

When this foul brew combines with atmospheric moisture, it creates a low voltage electrical current flow/ion transfer that promotes oxidation, in a process similar to that of a dry cell battery. As long as there is a bimetallic interface and fouling with any degree of acidity or alkalinity, this process will start as soon as the atmospheric moisture and oxygen succeeds in penetrating to the bimetallic interface. This is why you should clean out the fouling and establish a protective coating that can block moisture penetration, or at least effectively oil the bore between shooting the session.

This regimen used to be basic military shooting and cleaning doctrine. You would shoot one day, and clean on each of the three succeeding days, because the metallic crystalline structure traps fouling and gas, which emerges as the gas seeps out over the first few days following shooting. It's not gremlins, and it's not mental lapse that turn a clean bore into a dirty one overnight. It's just the natural sequence of events which are driven by the pressure cycles that occur during shooting session. Or at least that's the way it was explained to me some decades ago.

This is all very trite, but it's also true enough. I agree with many that over cleaning is destructive, especially if done improperly, and do suspect that the shoot one, clean three regimen is a bit excessive.

But by the same token, I also fail to see what fundamental change has occurred in the shooting process that eliminates the need for bore maintenance. That's why I occasionally remark that the old methods I learned 'back when' have not stopped working for me. Bore scoping shows that with care in the cleaning process, bore status remains acceptable and the only real issue is throat erosion due to the actual firing heat/pressure cycle itself.

Accuracy may hold up, and that's all well and good, but I'm not hearing much about the corrosive effects of bore neglect. It may well be that such oxidation is actually unrelated to accuracy degradation, I honestly don't know, but I also feel that a valuable firearms deserves at least rudimentary maintenance and care, even if for nothing more than the standpoint of pride in one's possessions.

The only time I don't clean and oil my bores after each shooting session is during hunting season, so my preseason zero is not affected by the bore's cleaning/fouling status. Right now, I am in the process of cleaning seven rifles/shotguns/frontstuffer preparatory to laying them up for our local Winter shooting hiatus.

Greg



Given the simplicity and availability of bore cleaning foam products, cleaning has become so easy that it makes little sense to me not to clean after a day's shooting.

Greg_________________________Borrowed from the snipers hide forum.thought some might want to read this as well....some interesting reading...

[stangfish]

After pushing a patch throu the bore after every match along with some bore cleaner I decided I was way over cleaning. It is a hand lapped bore, some may need it...most of mine don't.

[bigedp51]

acemisser

I don't blame you for wanting to take care of a custom made barrel, I just believe in "less" is more and why I like the foam bore cleaners. Good luck with your new barrel.

For the other readers with factory barrels that are button rifled some of these barrels will "eat" a bore brush and give a false positive copper reading. The foam bore cleaning products will do wonders and requires minimum cleaning rod time. I also use more aerosol cans of of carb cleaners to blast the carbon out of the bore. But if you let the foam cleaners sit overnight they will remove more carbon also. Kroil also cleans and removes carbon and can be left in overnight and this oil creeps into every nook and cranny.

If you like cleaning rifles then get an AR15, its gas system blows the cyclic gas back into the receiver and are run "wet" to catch all the crud.


Barrel Cleaning Procedures
The Great Debate--Brushing and Cleaning Intervals

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/barrel-cleaning-debate/

Bore Cleaning Methods and Materials
How to Clean Your Barrels with Less Effort and Better Results

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/bore-cleaning-methods-and-materials/

[darkker]

..As I had mentioned in another post,I had talked with the fellows at Hodgon,as well as barrel manufactor's and they all told me that barrel life will be improved with cleaning the carbon out of the chamber,etc...

On this specific line, I have a question for you; This IS NOT to be argumentative, rather as a talking point only.

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller. Isn't it a little odd, your powder company is your barrel authority??
On the other side of that, Given ADI's extruded powders way of rapidly developing "hard Carbon" fouling, I am not surprised in the least that they recommend frequent cleaning.

If you have a gun that shoots better clean, then by all means clean it. But that in and of it's self is not directly related to "break-in" as per the title of the thread.

[acemisser]

Hodgdon is not a powder maker(smokeless), they are a surplus blender/ reseller. Isn't it a little odd, your powder company is your barrel authority??

Thats a stupid remark....If they produce the powder they shoould know what is involved to clean it out of a barrel...

And you right about having nothing to do with barrel break in....But I suppose it can be included in the same thing..
Shoot and clean....no matter what you all have to say I am gonna continue to clean my barrel with the foam cleaner
and keep a tally on number of shots I will find out if my barrel life improves or not....

[Apache]

Ace,

That is by far the best thing to do. Do it your way - then you will have personal experience concerning the matter and can then advise accordingly.

Darkker,

I haven't heard about ADI and excessive hard carbon fouling. Is this first hand knowledge? Tell me what you can.