Red dot optics for self defense

[rgburrill]

I am looking at getting an autoloading rifle for predators and skunks (both 4 and 2 legged varieties ;)) in the medium range arena, say 25 to 200 yards. I have, however, found very little in the way of articles on what kind of optics to use. Red dot optics in general are suggested for this but there isn't much in detail provided and there are many different kinds and prices for them. So can any of you give me your thoughtss and hopefully experiences with tube type and the single lens type and 2X magnification, etc. And preverences on manufacturer's and price ranges? $200 is a lot to spend on one if a regular 3-9x40 scope will work just as well.

[rjtfroggy]

Go here and ask or search away www.opticstalk.com

Most are well versed in optics and you will sort out the BSer's rather quickly.

[rgburrill]

Thank you. I have checked out that site and the accompanying SWFA site. My gawd they are expensive. And most of the commenters on the opticstalk seem very snobbish - everthing is SWFA has the best stuff. One guy, way down on the page from the search talked about Millet which was the only red dot scope under $200.

[kevin_stevens]

I don't have specific product recommendations, but my experience is that whenever I put a red dot optic on, my field accuracy remains about the same, while my time-to-trigger drops *significantly*.

KeS

[J.Baker]

My personal experience...

Up until recently my only previous experience with "reflex" or "red dot" sights was on a 12ga slug gun and for that they worked well (larger target at 150 yards or less). Recently I purchased an Aimpoint PRO for one of my .223 AR-15's, but after using it for a couple months now I think it's going to get moved to my .22LR AR-15. The problem is that most of these reflex sights are zero magnification and the dot is anywhere from 2-6 minutes in size. That's 2" to 6" at 100 yards not including the "red haze" that bleeds off the dot. This large dot size makes it next to impossible to use on smaller targets (furry or paper) - even at 50 yards. As the name implies, they're for "reflex" shots where precision accuracy isn't necessary...where close enough will get the job done because it's a big target and you're not worried about a quick, clean, efficient kill or tiny little groups on paper.

With that said, I've been looking at variable power scopes with illuminated dot reticles. Most every manufacturer offers them now at any given price point, and you have a wide selection of reticles and power ranges to choose from. I've been looking at the 1.5-6x variety as on the low end it will still work very well as a reflex sight, but it will also offer enough magnification for hitting the boiler room on coyote sized game out to 300 yards or better. I think a 2-7x would be another good choice, as would a 3-9x, but you loose the close-in reflex ability the higher you go on the low end.

In a perfect world (one where I had unlimited funds) I'd go with one of the newer high zoom lens scopes with a 6 or 8x magnification factor (1-6x, 2-12x, 2-16x, etc.). Sadly I can't afford to spend $1,000 to $4,000+ on a rifle scope - nor could I ever really justify such a purchase, but it is an option if that's what you really want and you want it bad enough.

[kevin_stevens]

A 2-7x33 VX-R is what I had on my .30-06. Even with the dot turned down almost all the way to a faint glow on the reticle, it really snapped your eye to the center. Moreso, if this makes any sense in a single focal plane, I tend to look at the ANIMAL and put the dot where I want it, rather than look at the reticle and try to put it ON the animal. Difficult to describe but easy to discern just by turning the dot off.

KeS

[rgburrill]

Do the illuminated scopes have the same parallax feature of a red dot in that you do not have to have your eye centered on the scope? That is the primary feature I looked at because it allows someone like my wife, who has neve used a scope and is left eye dominate, to still place a round on the target very quickly. As the subject says I am concerned about self defense more than anything else.

[bfwhite]

I use the Vortex Strikefire (4MOA dot) on my AR15 home defense rifle. I like the fact I can hit a 4 inch plate out to 200 yards with both eyes open. It is really handy inside of houses when you need your non-shooting eye to observe what is going on outside the scope picture. If you have the money get an Aimpoint or Eotech. BTW, all of these brands make magnifiers. In home defense, I would not use a magnifier. I spent the money for the magnifier on a high power flashlight (Eagle Tac XL). Hit an intruder with 720 lumes and you will blind him. If you are concerned with the size of the red dot, Vortex makes the Sparc with a 2MOA dot. Most all of the red dot scopes for home defense have the parallax feature. Just put the red dot on the target regardless of where it is at in the scope picture and pull the trigger.

[rgburrill]

Thanks to all for the input.

[223Rem]

An option you might consider is a low variable optic in the 1-4x power range. 4x is plenty at 200 yards.

Although you mentioned SWFA and are a little turn off by the forum talk, they do provide an excellent option for $150.

The Optisan Mamba package offers a lot for the money. Extremely close to a true 1x, great reticle for CQB and has a BDC turret for longer shots. Even comes with a mount that provides proper eye relief.
http://swfa.com/Optisan-1-4x24-Mamba-EAR30-Mount-Combo-P51887.aspx

[helotaxi]

As soon as you go to a magnified optic, even if it is a "true 1x" at minimum magnification, you introduce parallax and have to worry about consistent eye position. For a defensive rifle, you simply don't need magnification. You don't need to shoot a small target. You don't need a super precise aiming point. I have several low power scopes including two 1.25-4x models. They are handy and flexible, but at close range where speed counts I don't delude myself into thinking that they are a replacement for a good red dot sight.

I have a Vortex Strikefire and it is a great option for the money. The Aimpoint PRO would be my choice on a dedicated defensive rifle. I quit "cheaping out" on optics some time ago and I've found that you get what you pay for most of the time. That said I use coupons and look for sales to get the most glass for my money. You'd be amazed the prices that you can find for excellent optics if you are patient.

[rgburrill]

An option you might consider is a low variable optic in the 1-4x power range. 4x is plenty at 200 yards.

Although you mentioned SWFA and are a little turn off by the forum talk, they do provide an excellent option for $150.

The Optisan Mamba package offers a lot for the money. Extremely close to a true 1x, great reticle for CQB and has a BDC turret for longer shots. Even comes with a mount that provides proper eye relief.
http://swfa.com/Optisan-1-4x24-Mamba-EAR30-Mount-Combo-P51887.aspx

Again, this is a standard, albeit low power, sight. It is not a reflex sight.

[rgburrill]

Some places show a 1-3X scope sitting infront of a reflex sight. Some are even slightly higher. I think I even saw one that had 1-3x magnification built in. Does nayone have any experience with these? Again, my primary concern is for my wife who has not used a scope but I also want to be able to use it myself at longer distances. Maybe I'm just to hopeful and should just buy a Reminton 750 for her and a Savage Model 11 for me ;)

[masterblaster]

My advice is go to basspro and look at the 223 line, Leupold has a very neat scope , both eyes open with magnification out to 4x, illum reticule, you have to see it to believe it. I will be selling my cheapo red dots and getting two of these. for my 308 and 223 AR's. Look at them all, I suggest getting an integrated lume reticule and magnification instead of a magnifier.

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/

[helotaxi]

With practice any scope is a "both eyes open" optic. That doesn't mean that it's parallax free and doesn't have finite eye relief. That makes it slower than a red dot.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either get the benefits of a red dot or you get magnification. You can't have both.

[ODA 0121]

You need to decide if you are going for self defense or not. If it's self defense a "red dot" is your best option. One of good quality with easily take you out to 300 meters for a center mass shot. I have Eotechs on my M4 and HK, I'm use to them and the quality is great. I've tested the Vortex SPARC and for it's price it's a good little optic and has a 1 MOA dot.

I have some civilian friends that have mounted a red dot and then gone back to a scope because they've grown up with a scope and either hunt or punch paper and are not concerned with someone coming at them from 50 feet or just from the other side of a door.

[J.Baker]

From what you're wanting to do (dual purposes) I think the best solution would be a laser sight for CQB/self-defense and a 1-4x or 1.5-6x for the distance shooting. The laser would mount on the fore-end and have a press-button to activate (think Crimson Trace grips) so you could have it and the scope mounted at the same time.

That said, I don't know anyone in their right mind who would choose or recommend an AR-15 as a suitable home or self-defense weapon. A shotgun with a standard stock and 18.5" barrel is unwieldy in the confines of a home for well trained and experienced operators and a 16" AR15 with a collapsible stock isn't that much shorter, so to think it would be a good choice for a novice or less experienced shooter for home/self-defense purposes is a little ludicrous. Set up the AR for how you want to use it and get the wife a suitable handgun for self-defense.

[rgburrill]

Good suggestion MrFurious. Note, however, I never said AR15 and have no intetion of getting one. My problem is limited funds, thus the dual purpose. And the best rifle I can find for my dual purpose is the Remington 750 in 243 calibre. It has almost a 300 yard point blank range so is a good long range rifle and as a semiauto with a 10 round mag a good short to mid range self defense rifle. My wife and I both have pistols with lasers for close range so having one on the rifle is a good option. I agree the shotgun is best but money is money and with things the way they are now the prices are even going higher - Buds just went from $641 to $699 on the 750! :suspicion:

[ODA 0121]

"That said, I don't know anyone in their right mind who would choose or recommend an AR-15 as a suitable home or self-defense weapon."

Well then you would be in the minority. The FBI (since 1998) and more than 95% of law enforcement professional list in order as the best suited home defense firearm as: #1 an AR15 or like rifle, #2 a shotgun and #3 a pistol. From aiming accurately, penetration, and preventing the weapon from being taken away by a intruder the AR15 type rifle is heads above the other two choices. Facts are facts.

[helotaxi]

Remember that tactics and training along with mindset trump equipment. If you are defending your home, that means defensive position, not going room to room clearing it. The AR-15 is not a hindrance in the least in that situation. It really isn't a hindrance clearing a building either. If it were, it wouldn't be the go-to weapon for people that do it for a living.