Custom vs Out of the Box

[romad97]

I have been really trying wrap my head around the pros and cons of doing a custom or just buying a savage 11 trophy hunter xp package. I want a 243. My main purpose is long range hunting as well as a fun rifle to punch holes in paper at long range. If I price out building my own I come out to around the 1K mark, thats without a scope. I can get the package for around $470. I am having a hard time deciding on why a build would be the better option. I understand that the package is goign to have inferior stock, recoil lug, and a few other things but, why could'nt these things be added to it piece by piece over time? Just want some more thought/logic on why it would be better/worse to buy the package rifle or just go ahead and spend the extra money and build one from the ground up.

[mjbgalt]

i just bought one and it shot its first group today. first 15 shots included sight ins and such and when i shot a group it was in the 0.3" range.

[rattfink]

The route I'm going to pursue is I feel the best of both worlds. I plan to buy a factory rifle, and add things along the way. So after I save the cash I plan to order a new stock, bottom metal etc. But in the mean time I will have something nice to shoot. Besides, who knows, you may end up being ok with the stock!

[Gmac5]

Nothing beats custom . That being said i dont think $1k would build a real custom , if you buy the higher end savages , the f class , benchrest, lrpv and such you would be ahead in the long run . Great stocks , precision triggers , then you could upgrade the barrel after you shoot it out .

[scythefwd]

I dont know of a full on custom that comes in under 2k. I will be able to build a nice and very accurate savage for under 1.5k and in all reality it will take a much better shooter than I will tell the difference.

[romad97]

I dont know of a full on custom that comes in under 2k. I will be able to build a nice and very accurate savage for under 1.5k and in all reality it will take a much better shooter than I will tell the difference.

By custom I actually mean build, not a true custom. I mean buying an action, lighter trigger spring, heavier recoil lug, better barrel such as CBI etc..., and a nice aftermarket stock. I can do all this for around 1K plus another $300-$600 for a decent scope. If I buy the XP TH package I have a decent ready to go rifle that I can upgrade piece by piece. I was just mainly wanting opinions on pros and cons of doing this vs just building right from the start.

[scythefwd]

rom.. you're talking doing what I'm planning on doing then. Only thing that will be left is the trigger and action. The trigger will have been tuned and lightened a hair (3 screw trigger with a .041 trigger return spring... bought a roll of the stuff for 8 bucks).

My price will be
300 for the base rifle
340 for the barrel, shilen select match
25 for a sss recoil lug
100 for a boyds laminate thumbhole stock
15 for pre notched pillars
35 for the devcon
+ tax/shipping on everything but the rifle.

Then I'll be upgrading bases and rings to a one piece like talley sets for another 50 or so..

IF I get a wild hair, I may add an adjustable comb and buttstock on it.. but thats gonna get REAL expensive.
Total - 908.25 before shipping.. and taxes paid on everything.. BUT I wont be paying taxes on everyting.. so I think that will be a semi-accurate gustimate. It should hang with one of the F class rifles.

[romad97]

Where are you seeing base rifles at $300?

[scythefwd]

It was a ftf sale on VaGunTrader.com
There a 110 in 270 listed there for 275 but its missing the original front action screw and has a Tupperware stock on it. I can generally find them for 3-350 pretty easily.

The nice thing is that I have a shootable rifle from the get go

[helotaxi]

I want a 243. My main purpose is long range hunting

What do you consider "long range" and hunting what?

[romad97]

What do you consider "long range" and hunting what?

With a 243 I want to huntt coyotes, deer, and one day an antelope. I would consider long range 500 yards plus.

[scythefwd]

I'd say antelope at 500 will require something with more energy out at that distance. .308, 30-06 and up in power levels are good choices. I cannot speak for any of the 6.xmm rounds because I have no experience with em. 100gr 243 rounds will be less than 900 ft lbs of energy, and down 43" at 500y. I hold pretty hard to the 1k rule.. 1k ft lbs of energy for a good clean kill in the boiler. .308 sits at just above 1050, 30-06 sits at 1150 or just above. All using federal's numbers, so that may be optimistic. At that type distance.. I recommend stepping up to some of the mags.

[romad97]

I'd say antelope at 500 will require something with more energy out at that distance. .308, 30-06 and up in power levels are good choices. I cannot speak for any of the 6.xmm rounds because I have no experience with em. 100gr 243 rounds will be less than 900 ft lbs of energy, and down 43" at 500y. I hold pretty hard to the 1k rule.. 1k ft lbs of energy for a good clean kill in the boiler. .308 sits at just above 1050, 30-06 sits at 1150 or just above. All using federal's numbers, so that may be optimistic. At that type distance.. I recommend stepping up to some of the mags.

I will politely disagree with you on this. I believe that 900 ft pounds is more than adequate to punch through an animal of 200 lbs or less. I agree that a 30-06 is an exellent choice but, I am not talking large game such as elk or larger type animals. I have no concerns of being an ethical and powerful enough round for the task I want to do with it. I honestly don't want to turn this thread into another "anything other than a 30-06 is inadequate for deer" thread. I was just looking for opinions of factory vs semi custom build.

[scythefwd]

Sorry bout that.. I knew we were talking antelope.. but my mind was picturing Mule deer. Those guys get quite a bit larger.. I'm not saying the 243 wont work. I'm saying I'd step up a little for 500y shots.. if you go 500+ (it depends on how much + you're talking here) I'd be more worried about the round ability to buck wind, etc. I've always been a fan of heavy bullets because they seem to deflect less in the wind, but thats just me. I didnt say 30-06 is the only option.. I just said that its my opinion that its right about the basement for long range hunting. If you can find something else that hits as hard out that far, and you can keep it in a 6-8" circle.. by all means use it. It most definitely wasnt the intent of my post to suggest that 06 is the only option.

[americanstrat98]

With a 243 I want to huntt coyotes, deer, and one day an antelope. I would consider long range 500 yards plus.

Man, You are picking one underrated round. I love old trusty .243's.
Honestly a Custom Build is way too pricey,
Building a Rifle to Fit you can be done for Less,
and there is certainly nothing wrong with buying a Stock FV, BV 12 and parting out some parts for others. IE Sharp Shooter Supply bolt handles and all bedazzler stuff you can think of.

Savage Actions are great actions, Very concentric (all parts lining up with a center line=precision)
Douglas barrels have gone way down in quality, but Shillen, McGowen Krieger ect are all great choices.
Having said that about barrels, Savage's Chamber reamings are actually pretty darn good. More times than not, I find them to be very well made barrels. The only parts that could use some help are the Stamped Barrel Lug, The facing of the receiver. You can usually have a good gunsmith turn out a "true Shoulder for your lug to rest against, and the lock-nut should also be faced to match.

You can also adjust LOP(lengthofpull) on your wood stocked rifles and it's pretty effective in helping the shooter "fit" to their rifle like you pay for when having a True Custom Build.

Making a rifle from scratch 2,500+
Assembling Parts 900+
Buying and accurizing 800+

A true Cheap rifle will cost 1105+
Here is my cheapo savage. 600 for rifle, 12bvss (22-250) DNZ mounts 55$, Leupold VX-III 4.5-12x40mm (dealer discount) 400$. Time it took me to bed, dress crown, lap rings= 60$ (bout an hour, but done in spare time so it was all free labor) Sharp Shooter Supply Bolt handle 40$
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/americanstrat98/SavageModel12bvss4.jpg
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/americanstrat98/SavageModel12bvss2.jpg

[helotaxi]

I've always been a fan of heavy bullets because they seem to deflect less in the wind, but thats just me.

Yep, it's just you. BC, not weight, determines how well a bullet does in the wind. You'd be surprised how incredibly well the .243 does in the wind with 105 VLDs. I love the .243 but, that said I like a heavier bullet simply for on game performance at that range. I have no love for the .30-06. I think that it has excessive recoil for its ballistic performance. For the same level of recoil the 7mm magnums vastly outperform the .30 cals. With the newer low drag bullets out there the .270 WSM is a smoking hot performer as well. 300yds is pretty much my limit with the .243, which I do carry for mule deer.

[scythefwd]

Thought the 7mm mag had a bit more recoil than the 06. If recoil is an issue, by all means choose something different. I dot feel it until I get into the 338. I thought I was going to feel the 06 more than I did...I found it quite pleasant to shoot.

[americanstrat98]

Hi all, like it says I'm "New to this Forum" but not to Savage Arms and it's long history.

I posed the same question as the original question to an instructor in gunsmith school..

If you truly want something that is for just you, then You will want to go with a custom rifle, period. It's not a simple undertaking. It involves passion of the sport, understanding in what makes your Dream Rifle, and last but certainly not least, Money. Yes these beautiful examples of craftsmanship can be yours for between 2500-150,000$. There is absolutely no limit to what your imagination can hold, and there are few limits as to what a true Custom Gunmaker can produce with such desires. You may check out ACGG.org (american custom gunmaker guild) for some great examples, and I will always urge anyone to have a custom piece if life permits it. It truly is a joy to have a rifle fit to all the things in your mind that make the Perfect Rifle.

I asked him, to run an economic Gunsmith Shop, Why wouldn't I just stock Savage actions, being that they are the truist actions as a whole on the market today(this is another little secret offered by a great gunsmith). His reply was bc some folks may not want a savage, folks out there still like the Military, Control Round Feed method of loading on a rifle, some folks like conical breaches with excellent case support, and some folks, just some, like savages. "And I tell you KC, if you ever get to a BR match and you see a fella or a lady, and all they have is a box of reloads, and a savage rifle, you need to pack your bags and leave, bc they can probly shoot" hahahah.

His point being, We as smiths cannot choose whats best for our customers, but we can definately educate them professionally on how to best fulfill their needs, safely and sometime economically.

From an economic standpoint, and from just a slight bit of knowledge of my own, and a vast knowledge of my instructors, I'd say that buying a savage, Immediately having it bedded ( must have clearance with the bottom and front of the lug) and Using a proper mount, will get you very close to your goal with a way smaller price tag. Savages on average have a .001-.002" run out in concentricity. Other manufactures (including classic winny's and remmy's) have runouts .003" to .007". You'll pay for less machining time on a savage, if indeed it needs it, and most times my friend it does not. If you do it this way, you can sell your bolt handle on ebay and purchase a Sharp Shooter Supply bolt handle for a custom feel. Some DNZ single base mounts, (they are more concentric than two piece bases, and require less lapping in my experience). The actions rarely need work for the kind of performance your asking which is very reasonable with a .243 WIN. It is one heck of a round and I'm happy to see someone making such an educated choice. The Savage 12, BV, FV class rifles can be found used for 550-750 range used and that is worth it to me. I bought one recently, redressed the crown, cleaned off the carbonized oil, exchanged some parts here and there, put on a good scope and walla I now have another 12 with less than 1100 invested. Now it took me almost 4 years to find this deal but when I saw it I did it. Wife even okayed it!

Sorry bout the ranting.

243, excellent choice,
picking up a savage from the factory is a pretty safe bet as long as you choose an accustock, or heavy BV model.
Scoping it is next in line, how often have I seen a 1500$ rifle with a Game Guide scope on it.:confused:

If you go with parting it yourself, Buy a book by Harold Vaughan called "rifle accuracy facts" first. Then a book by Julian Hatcher called "Hatchers Notebook" (this is to understand headspacing procedures, and just a great read for a gun nut). Parting a rifle together can be great fun too, just don't loose hope if groups start out high, I'm sure you'll get it how you want it!

Here is a little bit of gun-porn for all my ranting, This is a 12bvss, total invested was 1100, Rifle-600, Vari-X III 4.5-14x40mm Fine reticle-400, DNZ mount 50$(+50$ worth of shop time i put into crown dressing and bedding)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/americanstrat98/SavageModel12bvss4.jpg
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/americanstrat98/SavageModel12bvss2.jpg

[ellobo]

Here is what I built my .35 Whelen for:
Donor flat back 30-06.....$225 Auction Arms
Adams and Bennett Barrel on sale Midway....$89.95
Used factory laminate stock......$38 Auction Arms
Stainless trigger guard and barrel nut. About $25 (forget the actual prices.)
$377.95 total.
Add $150 for a Boyds Prairie Hunter stock when I save up enough quarters. I have a choice of 3 scopes, all older scopes, Weaver K4 and a K6 and a Pentax 3-9
This rifle shot 2 3shot groups after sight in with the K6 scope that were 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch with Green box Remington 250 gr..It has done better with 225 and 200 gr. handloads. I think it did as well as it did with the Remingtons due to the medium heavy barrel. The accuracy is adequate for the woodland hunting I do and yes it is heavy which suits me fine. I was given reloading dies, 250 gr. bullets, cases and a nut wrench by a friend of mine who gave up reloading. I was in bad need of an operation for a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder when I first shot that rifle. It was 18 months after surgery before I shot it again, but no pain now.

El Lobo

[helotaxi]

Thought the 7mm mag had a bit more recoil than the 06. If recoil is an issue, by all means choose something different. I dot feel it until I get into the 338. I thought I was going to feel the 06 more than I did...I found it quite pleasant to shoot.It's not so much that it's an issue, more that for the performance that you receive from the cartridge, it's more than it should be. I'm not terribly enamored with .30 cal cartridges in general. I have a .308 target rifle that I shoot a good bit and I killed my deer this year with a .308 Marlin Express lever action (roughly a .300 Savage if you're not familiar with the cartridge) but those are the only two .30 cals I own. I hunt deer with a .243 right now but have no illusions about taking a shot much beyond 300yds with it. I'm taking a 7mm WSM with me for elk this weekend. I have a .270 WSM that is waiting on stock and scope to become my "go-to" long range hunting rifle. The two WSMs are very light weight and between them I shot a little over 50 rounds from the bench this last weekend over the course of about an hour and a half getting them sighted in, without any discomfort at all. They both carry velocity downrange significantly better than the .30-06 as well and buck the wind with lighter bullets. When the new Accubond long range bullets come out, if the early numbers hold true, the .270 WSM will comfortably outshoot the .300 Win Mag with regard to flat trajectory and wind drift and should carry more than 1k ft-lb of energy out well past 800yds (possibly even 1,000 yds, I need to run the numbers.).