The right Bullet for .308 Criterion barrel

[loneranger04]

Thanks Charlie! Didn't know that. Just looked and that's what I'll be trying. That's what I love about these forums. Tons on useful information.:biggrin-new:

[FUBAR]

No one can take this overall subject and condense it to a single category.

It not just "one thing"; jumping or jamming, long vs short bullet, heavy vs light, plus no one mentioned long vs short freebore, or slow vs long burning powder, and I can't recall if long vs short barrel length, or the number of groves in the barrel, etc.....

It's all of the above: All things being equal, you can't have a long bullet without weight--now before someone jumps off their horse, I did say all things being equal--each type of bullet is different but in the formula(s) for design weight cannot be dismissed: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/bullet_weights.htm

Therefore the velocity, bullet design, seating depth, barrel length, powder burn rate, freebore, neck tension, and case design (is there room for the correct powder/bullet combo) etc.... All have to be taken as a whole to predict how a particular bullet will act, in a particular twist rate....

JBM has a great calculator, it enhances ones ability to calculate the outcome in principle and in practice :cool:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/bullet_weights.htm

[loneranger04]

Thanks Fubar. I"ve been using the JBM calculator to figure what bullet will work. I loaded some Nosler 168 gr. Competition with 45.0 gr of Varget yesterday to use to foul my barrel before shooting a group and just for kicks and grins I shot a couple of groups that were under 1/2". Unfortunately I don't think that bullet will be traveling fast enough past 1000 yards to stay stable. Most of they shooters I'm shooting with are using the 175 gr SMKs because of the BCs. Best those bullets do from my rifle is .8" and ususally I'm closer to 1". Probably good enough but I'd like to stay closer to 1/2". Teele is using the 185 gr. Berger long range BTs and I've ordered some of them from bulletsample.com and I'm hoping that they will shoot good and I can seat them short enough to load them into my magazine. What I may do is shoot the Nosler Competion bullets out to 900 yards and then switch to the Berger or SMKs. I'm also going to try the SMK 155 gr Palma. They have a really good BC also.
It's all part of the game. It's frustrating sometimes when the load you think should shoot doesn't however it's a lot of fun when you finally figure it all out and you see that nice cluster on the target.

[FUBAR]

Loneranger04:

I'm sure you'er better at shooting tiny groups at 1000 yards than I, as long as I can hit in my target radius I'm happy...

In other words I'm more interested in accuracy than precision :confused:

[loneranger04]

Loneranger04:

I'm sure you'er better at shooting tiny groups at 1000 yards than I, as long as I can hit in my target radius I'm happy...

In other words I'm more interested in accuracy than precision :confused:
I doubt that. I'm very new to this long range game. My first match I shot with my hunting rifle but I was hooked and bought this rifle and scope and started working on loads. November match will be the first time I'll have shot this rifle in a match so...

[FUBAR]

First thought, go on accurate shooter and ask the members what has been working for them.... http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?board=7.0

Make sure you provide all info on your rifle.

Have you done a Ladder Test on the loads you think are most promising?

Do you know the precise chamber length, and chamber neck size?

Are you checking concentricity of the rounds?

Seating depth may have a positive outcome, but you need precision measurements.

[helotaxi]

And keep in mind that the most important rule is that every barrel is a rule unto itself. If that weren't the case, everyone would use the same load and every rifle would shoot bugholes. While the predictive software can tell you what happens after the bullet leaves the barrel, what it can't do is match barrel harmonics and that is really what is going to make the difference with accuracy.

[FUBAR]

We all need to keep in mind that we are talking about a Bull barrel .308 at 100 yards...

Barrel harmonics can certainly have an impact, and barrel tuners can somtimes improve precision....

However this is a bull barrel that should be shooting .50 or less with the right selection of factory ammo at 100 yards, asssuming the shooter does their part. I would bet money that adding a barrel tuner to this rifle would not help much with the same loads and conditions outlined in the OP.

Loneranger04 has one of two issues:

1. A "bad" barrel--and that does happen every so often, and the reasons are pure speculation at this point, but they could include a poor break-in sequence....shooting a couple of different types of factory known performers might eliminate some assumptions

2. Bad ammo--with hand crafted ammo the variables are many, we talked about several in this thread...
--altitude and climate could change the POI but not the spread, all things being equal
--the bad ammo premise changes the "all things being equal" assumption.

Note: Shooting a couple of different types of factory known performers at 100 yards will most eliminate some assumptions

[LabRat2k3]

Please don't take this wrong, but I see most of the shooting that you told us about is not in group size based scored matches. So, that being said do you have another rifle that you are shooting .5 MOA or smaller groups regularly with? Have you let someone you know can shoot those kinds of groups try shooting it? The reason I ask is I have shot my whole life and always considered myself a pretty good shot. That was until I put together a really good rifle, and found that there is a huge difference in shootong 1.0-0.7 MOA groups and shooting sub 0.5 groups. I'm still working on my form and can get in the 0.6 range, but can't seem to break into the 0.5 or less club on every group yet.

[loneranger04]

It certainly could be me. I shoot pistol much more than I do rifle but I can usually take my old 30-06 deer rifle with a 3x9 Leupold and get under 1" groups. I bought this rifle from a young man that had it made up for him and, from what I can tell and read, he did it all right. Manners stock, Criterion Bull barrel, Kevin Rayhill trued action and bedded the action to the stock. Great trigger. It's one of those rifles that just looking at it it looks like it ought to shoot bug holes with any ammo. Has a 20 moa seekins rail and I mounted a Vortex PST 6-24 FFP mil/mil scope withj Seekins rings. Been using Lee collet neck die for sizing and Redding micrometer seating die. I've got nearly zero runout using a Sinclair runout gauge. Using CCI BR 2 primers. The other day I shot two groups with Nosler 168 gr Competion bullets and 45.0 grs of Varget and one group was 1/2" and the other was 3/8" however I need the BC of bullets like 175 SMK to be sure the bullet will have enough velocity past 1000 yards to stay stable and not tumble ( a problem some of my buddies are having with the lower BC bullets). Every one I shoot with uses SMK 175 because they have a good BC and are fairly resonable but they just shoot so so in my rifle. My problem is I don't want to buy a box of this and a box of that to see which bullet with the right BC will shoot best (the reason I asked this question here originally. Wanted to find out what others were having best luck with) so...thanks to one of the earlier posters I found Bulletsamples.com and ordered some SMK 155 Palmas and Berger 185 gr long range target BT. One is at one end of the weight range and the other is at the other end. We will see if I can get one of these to perform better than the 175 SMKs.
Thanks for all the replies. I let you all know how it turns out. They shipped my bullets today so should get to shoot them next week maybe.

[FUBAR]

Sounds like you have a good start, you know the gun will shoot for you, now just find the combo...

What is MV with the 168s with the Varget? Is it close to max for your rifle?

I have been told by many senior BR shooters, in skill and time shooting, that CCI BR primers are the very same as the standard CCIs....I certainly can't tell the difference in MV, ES, or anything else. Have you tried Fed match or mag primers? With certain powder & bullet combos I have increased MV without increasing powder by changing primers.

I would suggest only changing one thing at a time, but of course stick with the same bullet while doing so...sounds like you only need a recipe for your rifle

I don't shoot IBR type BR anymore and never shot a 308 Win, but I still shoot Longrange comp for fun/bragging rights, things like golf balls at known distance & unknown distance and the less shots to hit it the better:cool:

Good Shooting

[helotaxi]

Let me guess, the problem with tumbling bullets is with the 168 SMK?

[FUBAR]

Loneranger04: Below is a couple of conversations from another site about Berger 168 hybrids--

"I shoot them in my .308. They have made it a whole new experience at long range (800-1000). I use them with RL15 & I jump mine .020 for best results in my rifle. I absolutely love them. I shoot my SMK's as foulers now. The Bergers a little spendy but they sure do perform."

"I just won my first 1000 yard F T/R match using these bullets. They shoot very well and hold elevation better than the 185 LRBT from my rifle. I'm driving them hard with a stout load of Varget, Lapua brass, and soft seating the bullet. I've shot a lot of the 185's but these are my new "go to" bullet. I'm really impressed with them..."

[loneranger04]

Thanks Fubar. Now I wish that I would have ordered some of those. And "yes" I do believe that they were 168 gr smk. We've got a picture of one of the steel targets with the imprint in the paint of a the bullet hitting sideways. There are just so many different components to try. I started with Winchester standard large rifle primers but my SDs were double digit. Started off from the beginning using Lapua brass.
Can't wait to see how these next batch of bullets shoot. Kinda hopin' that the 155 gr SMK Palmas shoot great. Would like to have a little lighter recoil with the lighter bullets. Also they are a little cheaper than the Bergers.

Oh, I haven't chrono'd the 168s yet. I had the 175 SMKs running pretty close to 2700 fps with only 44.3 gr of Varget. At least that's what the CED pro read. Seems a little fast according to some of my other loads though. I'll have to varify my actual dope compared to JBMs calculations. Hopefully I can get someone to spot me at the match.