Need to learn how to read the conditions

[rjtfroggy]

I shot a match on Saturday and did terrible, way to many shots pushed over by the switching winds.The wind wasn't gale force by any means but it was enough to cause me problems.
While talking with and learning tid bits from an experienced shooter I learned my verticle was all good but my technique for conditions needs a lot of work. I just didn't think nor could I grasp the fact that even though I was shooting a 308 with 155smk at just over 2700 fps. the wind would play that much of a role with my accuracy but it does, so lesson #1 has been learned.
This was the first time out to 200 with this barrel and even though I shot a 0.334@ 100 with it two days before, shooting the score match at 200 on Saturday was a totaly different result. I guess I need to make up some wind flags, find a good book explaining the usage of them and then go learn it.
Even at sixty I still need an education to do what I want to do.
On a side note I had a couple of people told me I need a target gun for this game (all custom) but I will hold my ground that my Savages should be able to compete.

[memilanuk]

At longer distances it is often useful to focus a spotting scope at some intermediate distance, either roughly where the bullet is at its max distance up over the line of sight, or else where specific terrain features such as cuts in a tree line, gullies, etc. occur that might be dominating the wind effect on the bullet.

At shorter distances, watching mirage closely (this is where better optics pay dividends) as well as flags will probably help the most. Mirage boards can make things more readily apparent.

[rjtfroggy]

Saturday was heavily overcast with no perceivable mirage even the guys with 36x and 42x scopes weren't seeing it.As for my optics the gents with much more experience can't believe how clear the glass is on my 20x SS scope, they just don't like the reticle.This range sits at the bottom of a mountain(right at the bottom) so even the slightest breeze makes a difference, it just seems to swirl at the target frame and usually looks to be going in 2-3 different directions over the 200 yards.
Any recomendations on a good refrence book to start with?

[82boy]

The only way to learn how to read conditions is to spend some time behind the trigger. There is some good books out there Glen Newick, and Mike Ratigan have great sections on Mirrage, and wind reading. When shooting benchrest there is some things you have to pay attention to, beside the wind. One is light, the sun going in and out behind clouds can reak havok on groups. Mirrage is another, a good benchrest shooter can read the mirrage, and not watch a single wind flag, and shoot amazingly small groups. Many top notch shooters only watch mirrage. Shooting fast in switching conditions, and shooting slow in calm conditions is a good idea.

Wind is your friend. Here is a few post that Tom "Speedy" Gonzalez has done lately.
Tips on Vertical Problems
By
Speedy Gonzalez


1. A lot of rifles are muzzle heavy. Some rifles have too heavy a barrel and this causes vertical problems, especially those who shoot free recoil
...
2. Firing pin coming out of hole in bolt in the cocked position. This will cause poor ignition. Take bolt out of rifle and look in firing pin hole. If you cannot see entire end of firing pin it has come out of the hole.

3. Firing pin dragging in bolt or shroud. Listen to the sound when you dry fire. If not the same sound each shot something is wrong.

4. Trigger sear too much spring. Hold trigger in firing position and push down on sear with your thumb. If it is hard to push down, this will cause vertical problems.

5. Firing pin spring too weak or too strong will cause vertical problems. If you think this is the problem change springs and see what happens.

6. Tightening front sand bag too tight on stock. When you try to pull rifle back by hand and rifle feels like it is stuck in the bag it is too tight. Rifle should move in sand bags evenly, not jerk or chatter when pulling back by hand.

7. Action not level with top of stock running down at muzzle end. Rifle will recoil up at butt end causing vertical.

8. The load that are shooting can too light or heavy and can cause vertical problems.

9. Bench technique not same every shot. One example, should against stock one shot and not the next.

10. Bad primers – if getting vertical try other primers.

11. Bad scope, if scope is bad from shooting vertical, if you change your load in anyway and vertical goes away it is not your scope.

12. Rifle not balanced, it does not recoil right, jumps in bag. If rifle is built properly this will not happen.

13. Some stocks are very flexible. This can cause vertical.

14. Front sandbag too hard. I personally have never had a rifle that will shoot consistent with a rock hard front sandbag. It always causes vertical or other unexplained shots.



Other Tips:

1. Head on front rest loose. A lot of rests have movement even when you tighten them as much as you can. This can cause unexplained shots.

2. Some 30 mm scope rings are not getting tight enough to hold scope. Scope slipping in rings under recoil. This will cause point of aim movement.

3. Keep shell holders clean, in press and priming tool. I have seen so much dirt in shell holders that cases are sized crocked on body. Also primers cutting primer pockets bigger shaving brass as you seat the primer.

4. Whenever you can, set up so you can load watching conditions on the range as you load your ammo. That way you will be aware of any changes in conditions since your last group and you will be mentally prepared for the new condition.

5. Learn to look at whole field of flags, not just the row in front of you. A lot of times conditions change away from you will cause shot to go out of group before change in condition shows up in front of your bench.

6. When you chamfer the inside of your case necks make sure they are smooth enough that they don’t peel jacket material off when you seat the bullet.

7. I see people walking around with case necks turned up in the loading block. A lot of the time there is condensation dropping from the roof of your loading area. If one drop of water gets in case you are in trouble on the shot. How many times have you had a bad low shot when it has been raining and you have been walking around with your cases turned up in your block?

8. Learn to keep head down and follow through when you are shooting each shot.

9. I hear a lot of discussion about low shots in a group and apparently this occurs a lot on the fifth shot. If it is your 5th shot most of the time you can bet you are doing something at the bench.

10. If 5th shot is a problem, which everyone does at times, we do what I call wishing the last shot in. We just aim, pull the trigger, and do not worry about the wind flags.

11. This year alone I have seen nine lock rings on scopes that are not tight. Guess what that does to your group? Make sure yours are tight.

12. When you realize that the wind is your friend you will become a much better benchrest shooter.

13. Practice in wind, not in good condition.

14. Pay attention to angle changes on flags. Even though you see the same color angle changes make a big difference in your groups.

15. The longer you wait between shots when a condition is changing the more the condition change will affect your bullet.

16. If you do not know how to read wind flags or have never seen a wind flag try to shoot your group with the flags all going in one direction.

17. Equipment at bench has to work flawlessly. If it doesn’t get it fixed or get rid of it. We need all our attention on wind flags.

18. Learn to shoot with both eyes open so you can see more of the conditions.

19. Free recoil shooters should be sure rifle hits shoulder squarely on recoil, not on edge of shoulder or muscle of arm.

20. Should have your own stool to sit on so that you can sit at the bench comfortably for you.

21. Hunting rifle barrels – do not get cleaned enough. If you keep barrel clean it will shoot better for you. You should clean barrel good after every 10 to 12 shots.

22. Most hunting rifles will not put first shot after cleaning with rest of shots. So after cleaning if you have a rifle that won’t group first shot shoot one fouling shot before going hunting or before you shoot for group size.

23. When working up a load for your hunting rifle take your time and do not let the barrel get hot on you.
See More


http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.133.133/p133x133/550707_3683215361532_329162978_n.jpg
(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3683215361532&set=a.3683214921521.2135921.1309538568&type=1&relevant_count=3)
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.133.133/p133x133/577411_3683289603388_74341532_n.jpg
(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3683289603388&set=a.3683214921521.2135921.1309538568&type=1&relevant_count=2)

[Dennis]

The only way to learn how to read conditions is to spend some time behind the trigger

The above is the best advice for you. It worked for me, I mean I am a better shooter by spending more time behind the trigger. Many here are great in helping one achieve their personal goals.

The last 3 times out I was able to hold a 4" group @ 600 yds. Advice and prep did help, but most of all, trigger time helps the most.

Side note: I have a Savage Factory FCP 308 that will hang in there with my best custom target rifles. Many are shooting with Savages F class rifles, Vortex scopes, etc., and doing great!

[rjtfroggy]

Thanks for all the insight, keep it coming.
While sitting and cleaning up the reloading bench,and reloading 450 rounds of differing calibers I was thinking about this and here are some conclusions,I try to shoot twice a week almost always at 100 yards and at 1/2" dots, I always practice group shooting but the matches are for score so I am changing the target I shoot at. My approach to the gun is changing after a few rounds I need to stop doing that. I am not getting the gun back into the rest the same for each shot and the benches I practice on are concrete but the ones at the match are made from decking boards and 4x4's, so I need to go the extra 12 miles and practice there at least once a week.
There are probably a few more things I will think of, but for now I will try to adress these.

[acemisser]

do like I do and talk to yourself on every shot.Talk yourself through.Think is my hand where it was on the last shot-was my cheek where it was.etc..From what you have said,I seriously doubt it was the wind causing your bad groups..At 200 yards and with A 308 ?

I would rather say it is you...And I say this because I make the same **** mistakes.Thats why you need to talk yourself through every shot..Maybe you need to slow down some..Don't worry if your the last one done every time...To fast will cause your barrel to get too warm too soon..Try to make beleive your the only shooter there if you can...Like I said,if it wasn't a stroung wind,it is your shooting technique...We all do it..Good luck...

[davemuzz]

I usually just duct tape my face to the cheek weld. :)

[82boy]

When out praticing, you should "train as you fight," meaning if you are shooting matchs you should do everything you do at a match when praticing. With that said, if you shoot mostly group then pratice shotting groups, or if you shoot mostly score then shoot score. Shoot at the same type of targets you will shoot in a match. If the match is timed, then keep your pratice timed. If possible pratice with a shooting buddy, put a big of fun competition into it, such as put a quarter on the table, who shoots the best target keeps the money. Place stress on your self, such as cut your time in half, shoot during the worse condition times of the day.

If you gun is a good shooter you should be able to predict your shots. You should be able to look at the flags, and know withen a bullet hole of where that bullet will impact on the target. Set your scope up so that the round is impacting just over or under your aim point. When the wind is blowing dont adjust your scope play with holds. An example is say at 0 wind I hit dead center of a moth ball, now the wind is blowing in from 3 o'clock at 5 miles per hour, I will hold on the second ring, and let the wind blow the bullet into the mothball.

A good idea would be to watch Jack Nearys videos, I have shot with Jack, spent hours asking him questions, and he is a great teacher, and I highly prize his information. Pay attention to video #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOPf5Iva-Oo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DAIBx9uWmQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CtzuS_0wkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEhjBs66rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILvH6TYNcx8

[JCalhoun]

froggy;

There are better bullets than a 155gr SMK. The 175gr SMK is great and the 168gr Nosler Comp is fine also. If you don't mind spending a little bit more for the bullets, give the Berger VLD's a run.

If your elevation is good but you have a vertical spread, don't assume it's just the wind doing it. Check your trigger control, check weld, front & rear rests, and scope/sight screws.

Just a note, the range I shoot on is a PITA wind wise. It's 3 miles from the Gulf and it's very common for the wind flags to be in three different directions at the time. In those instances I usually hold center mass and take the shot. If I wait for the winds to settle I could run out of time.

[acemisser]

I usually just duct tape my face to the cheek weld. :)

Dave--From the looks of your ears,I would say you use more than duck tape...

[Dennis]

Almost the same in the middle of a sugar cane field in S Louisiana.

[Smokey262]

Great thread

1. A lot of rifles are muzzle heavy

Where is the preferred balance point?

[82boy]

Great thread

1. A lot of rifles are muzzle heavy

Where is the preferred balance point?

About 1 inch ahead of the barrel nut.

[rjtfroggy]

Patrick thanks for the links. I watched them before (and again) I think you posted them a long time ago, he is speaking primaraly about "group shooting" and I am limited at matches to "score", little different game.
When practicing or just plinking I normaly shoot for group and realy don't do that bad, it is just when shooting that one shot on target that I need to get used to.

[82boy]

Well yes he is mostly talking about group shooting, but the tuning process, principles is the same for group as it is for score.