Savage headspace question

[DennisH87]

So I re-barreled my savage rifle the way I always have but there's a possible problem. I set my FL die up so that the ram cams over slightly on the die at the top of it's stroke. FL sized 4 pieces of once fired brass. Placed one piece of clear packaging tape on the case head (.003" aprox.) of the FL sized brass and used that as my "Go-gauge." I placed another piece of tape on the case head (.006" total aprox.) and used that as my "No Go-gauge." I tested two pieces of brass for each Go and No-Go. Now the potential problem is I have two factory loaded rounds that will not chamber. One is Lake City and the other is remington. They're both pretty old but are clean. They will go into the chamber but the bolt stops at the 3'oclock position. I don't really plan on shooting factory ammo out of my rifle but it would be nice to have that option. It will only be fed reloads.

Why is it that the factory ammo won't chamber but all my brass chambers fine. Is it because I set up my headspace to match my dies?

I used the exact same method to headspace my .223 savage and it will shoot factory ammo and reloads just fine. I'm temped to get a go gauge but I'm stubborn and cheap.

Thanks in advance.

Dennis

[bootsmcguire]

Sounds to me like your FL die sizes the brass down a bit shorter than what the factory is. Shouldn't be an issue unless you wish to fire factory stuff. If you leave it this way I would either include your die or remove the barrel to force respacing if you ever should sell the rifle. Other wise I think you would be golden. Just work up loads in a normal manner since your case is sized smaller there may be some diminshed case capacity that could affect the loads, but it should be miniscule.

[DennisH87]

That's what I was thinking but I'm not a professional gunsmith. Just trying to wrap my head around it and make sure it's correct. I'm building this gun to shoot 600 and 1000 yard competition matches so factory ammo is useless to me other than for just the brass. And .308 factory ammo is never cheap so I guess it's in my best interest to leave it how it is. I know this way my brass won't get over worked by stretching and resizing. If I keep it this way I should probably always full length size then or can I neck size as well? I probably will never sell this rifle but that is a good idea.

[Admin]

Sounds to me like your FL die sizes the brass down a bit shorter than what the factory is. Shouldn't be an issue unless you wish to fire factory stuff. If you leave it this way I would either include your die or remove the barrel to force respacing if you ever should sell the rifle. Other wise I think you would be golden. Just work up loads in a normal manner since your case is sized smaller there may be some diminshed case capacity that could affect the loads, but it should be miniscule.

+1

Getting a short set of dies isn't all that uncommon, and is why I prefer setting my headspace off a piece of brass sized with MY dies rather than a go gauge. As Boots stated though, if you sell the rifle you'll want to include your dies with it or reset the headspace to a go gauge before handing it over to the new owner for safety reasons.

[bootsmcguire]

If I keep it this way I should probably always full length size then or can I neck size as well?

By all means neck size if you can. Should make your brass last much longer. For what its worth, I prefer the Lee Collet Die for neck sizing.

[bigedp51]

The average full length resizing die is set at least .002 smaller than minimum headspace when it makes firm hard contact with the shell holder to ensure a resized case will fit any chamber. I have full length dies that make the case .005 shorter than minimum headspace so nothing is written in stone.

I would use a GO gauge to set headspace at slightly over minimum and simply fireform your cases to fit your chamber. It is normal to push the shoulder back .001 to .002 smaller than actual headspace to ensure chambering and as the brass work hardens in the neck shoulder area the brass will spring back more after FL sizing and you will need some "growing room". A Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge will give you some very good information on your chamber and sizing.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMG_1243.jpg

If you look at the SAAMI spec sheet below you will see manufacturing tolerances for cartridge cases can run from almost .003 "over" minimum headspace and .005 under minimum headspace for new cases.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/saami223.jpg

I prefer tighter headspace settings BUT I have milsurp rifles that have as much as .016 head clearance and are still within military headspace limits. Don't cut yourself short on headspace and leave a little extra room to ensure you can chamber "ALL" cartridges. Once you pull the trigger on new brass it will be a custom fit to your chamber and a few thousandths over minimum will not do any harm.

There are many ways to adjust cartridge headspace "after" the case has been fired.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054345PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054719PM.jpg

[DennisH87]

Thanks for all the information. I'm still considering which route to go. I honestly never see myself shooting factory ammo but it would be nice to be able to in a pinch. But this gun is going to be used in competition matches and the occasional back yard 600 yard target so factory ammo for me is a waste of money except for the brass that I would collect from it. It's not all that hard to reset the headspace so I might just get the gauge. Would there be any accuracy advantage to leaving it short (as currently setup)?

[kslefty]

In my opinion you should loosen your die up a bit. All of my rebarrels have been set with a resized brass that is always just a smidge longer than a factory load. This way factory loads always chamber easily and my reloads have a slight drag on the bolt close.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Roll your own ammo and be done with it. With the shorter headspace, your brass will last a lot longer. Check the headspace with a piece of full length sized brass. Will the bolt close? You're done!

[tobnpr]

I just installed a new barrel on mine a couple of days ago.
I had ordered the "go" gauge from Brownells, but the Forster's bag was mis-labeled- instead of a 7-08, .308 gauge, it was a .223 gauge in the bag!

I was determined to do the job anyway, so I used my FL sized brass as the "go" gauge-without tape. I know the rifle might have issues with factory ammo- but I don't shoot factory so I don't care. Tight headspace will minimize the amount the brass gets worked. I used a piece of tape as the no-go...

[DennisH87]

If you headspaced your barrel with just the FL sized brass and no tape that means you have no headspace. You have to use one piece of tape (.002-3) to allow some headspace. Use two peices for a no go. Mic the tape that you use and see what it measures.

[tobnpr]

If you headspaced your barrel with just the FL sized brass and no tape that means you have no headspace. You have to use one piece of tape (.002-3) to allow some headspace. Use two peices for a no go. Mic the tape that you use and see what it measures.

That's what a "go gauge" is- zero headspace, according to SAAMI specs.

My bolt closed easily on all five pieces of FL sized brass I tried. Why do you feel "zero" headspace is an issue, when I'm only going to use brass that comes out of the die I set it with?

I would agree if I planned to use factory ammo- but that's not the case.

[DennisH87]

I must have misunderstood the measurement of the actual go gauge then. I thought they were slightly larger than zero headspace. The brass has to have some room to expand when fired or pressures can reach dangerous levels. I'm no expert but that was my understanding from what I've learned the last 5 years or so.

[Blue Avenger]

The neck has to have enough room to expand and release the bullet, but only Just enough. The rest of the case only has to fit. More then that is wasted movement. Yes the pressure will rise if none of the energy is used to reform the brass. That is part of why each rifle has its own personality when you reload. And why you don't use just anyone's untested reload in your gun.

[BillPa]

I must have misunderstood the measurement of the actual go gauge then. I thought they were slightly larger than zero headspace.


First of all, for firearms using a cartridge there no such thing as "Zero Headspace". Zero would mean the chamber is length zero or your shooting a muzzle stuffer!

Headspace is a extremely simple concept, its simply the distance between two points. First you need to understand some definitions, per the SAAMI glossary.



HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

HEADSPACE GAGE
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats.


A GO gage is used to set or verify a chamber is "Equal To or Greater Than" it's length.
A NO GO is used to set or verify a chamber is "Less Than" it's length.

We'll use the unaltered 308 Win family for example, the GO is 1.630", the NO GO, 1.634".

If the bolt will close on the GO with normal effort it means the breach face to the shoulder datum is Equal To or Greater than 1.630".
If the bolt will NOT close with normal effort on the NO GO it means the breach face to the shoulder datum is Less than 1.634", 1.633" or less.

Now, lets say I shim(tape) a GO gage .002". Now instead of a .003" tolerance, it reduced to only .001", 1.630" to 1.631". Plenty close enough for Government work!

Headspacing isn't magic, some black art or even complicated, its simply the distance between to points.

"Zero" headspace? Me thunks not!

Bill

[tobnpr]

Good explanation.
By "zero", I meant that as in your example, the "go" gauge measures 1.630...so I call that the "zero" reference point. From that SAAMI spec "zero" point, the no-go and field gauge lengths are determined. I was speaking in terms of "relative" measurements for my brass, and chamber.

Using the "go" gauge ensures the rifle will chamber any factory ammo. But, I doubt that you'd find many competition shooters that have headspace on their custom chambered barrels set with them. Custom dies, custom reamers, and headspace set to those specs.

Like you said, it's not magic- just an understanding of what it all means, and there is no "absolute" method of how one needs to set headspace on their barrel.

[DennisH87]

Bill, I didn't mean literally the measurement of Zero inches. I meant there is no room between the FL sized case or go gauge (minimum) and the datum line in the chamber therefore zero inches to be measured between the two objects. Tobnpr and I are on the same page. Thanks for clarifying though.