My new AXIS .308 Bolt Problem..

[fla9-40]

Let me apologize from the get-go for being long winded here, but this problem has gone on for two+ months now.
I bought this .308 because I have a .223 AXIS that is a tack driver.

On July 02 I purchased a Savage Axis in .308 caliber. The next day I took it to the range to sight in the scope I mounted. All rounds shot were store bought and not re-load. No sure of how many rounds were fired when I noticed the bolt was getting hard to open and eject the brass. After the second brass that seemed hard to eject I decided I would not shot anymore and contact Savage Arms. I took the gun home and proceeded to clean the gun when I noticed where the firing pin was it looked like chips in the face of the bolt, and a scratch going length ways of the lug. I also noticed it had “Smiley Faces” on the head of the brass. I boxed it up and sent it back to Savage Arms on the 16th of July.

This is the chips I found on the bolt face:
http://www.nettally.com/kwd/BoltFace2_308.JPG

And the “Smiley Faces” :
http://www.nettally.com/kwd/308_primer.JPG



They sent it back a week later and said they replaced bolt parts (don’t know what) and polished the bolt where the craters were, and test fired it.
I took it to the range and was sighting in my scope again and to try out two different brands of ammo and still have a hard bolt issue as well as the brass on the primmer end has a "Smiley face" which I understand is a head space problem.

Packed it back up and sent it to Savage for them to look at it again and to check the head space. I also included two of the three rounds I fired at the range. One being an S&B brand and the other being a Federal brand brass for their inspection

Got my .308 back from Savage on 9-13. The invoice they sent back was this:
1) Repair
2) Function Fired - PASSED
3) Head Space - GOOD
4) Polished Chamber
They also sent me the 4 rounds they Function Fired with and all 4 had the smiley face on the brass just as mine did.

Decided to take it to the range and sight in the scope and after doing so and about 10 rounds later the bolt would lift, but I thought at one time I would not get the bolt to open!! All brass has the Smiley Face on them also.

Have you any thoughts on this?

[thermaler]

I don't know much about these bolt action rifles--but if I saw something like that on one of my AR's I'd freak and cease using it and have it professionally checked.

[fgw_in_fla]

That looks alot like one of my bolt head / faces when it blew a primer out the wrong way & burned the bolt face with a permanant impression of the primer. I had bought a bag of Win brass & I believe it was defective or the primer pocket was too wide in diameter. It took quite a while to clean the soot out of the bolt & polish the bolt face to get the pitting out of it. It never did clean up 100%. The dark discoloration can be cleaned up with a little Hoppe's No. 9, a Q-Tip, a little steel wool & some elbow grease. Wrap a small piece of steel wool around the Q-tip cotton, dip it in the Hoppe's and polish it up nicely. The part that's leaving an impression in primers is pretty bad. The only remedy I can think of for that is to replace the bolt head. They cost around 25 bucks or so and pretty easy to swap out. If you do a swap out there's no need to do the other stuff.
I really don't think Savage will be of any help since that looks like a bad primer or loose brass let a primer leak or something case head / primer related. You'd be better off to buy a new bolt head & swap it out yourself.
You can try cleaning it up & polishing it but I think it's too far gone for that based on your photos.

The lift issue - did you apply a little lube where necessary? It may need to be shot a couple million times to break in & loosen up. I have an Edge that has a pretty tight bolt lift. Its starting to loosen up since its been used every weekend.

I'm sure some of the other guys will chime in here with their input. Good luck with it.

Frank in Fla

[thermaler]

That looks alot like one of my bolt head / faces when it blew a primer out the wrong way & burned the bolt face with a permanant impression of the primer. I had bought a bag of Win brass & I believe it was defective or the primer pocket was too wide in diameter. It took quite a while to clean the soot out of the bolt & polish the bolt face to get the pitting out of it. It never did clean up 100%. The dark discoloration can be cleaned up with a little Hoppe's No. 9, a Q-Tip, a little steel wool & some elbow grease. Wrap a small piece of steel wool around the Q-tip cotton, dip it in the Hoppe's and polish it up nicely. The part that's leaving an impression in primers is pretty bad. The only remedy I can think of for that is to replace the bolt head. They cost around 25 bucks or so and pretty easy to swap out. If you do a swap out there's no need to do the other stuff.
I really don't think Savage will be of any help since that looks like a bad primer or loose brass let a primer leak or something case head / primer related. You'd be better off to buy a new bolt head & swap it out yourself.
You can try cleaning it up & polishing it but I think it's too far gone for that based on your photos.Do you think there's any reason to believe/not believe the gun might not be chambering properly? I would be expecting some funky misfire issues if they were primer related alone. I don't know if it ever happens in the bolt action world, but it's not too hard to blow up an AR receiver if it fires out of battery.

[fgw_in_fla]

It would be pretty hard to fire a bolt action rifle without the bolt closed completely. I'm not saying it couldn't happen under any circumstance, like have an early detonation from who knows what but without the case pulled up tight to the bolt, the firing pin couldn't strike the primer. When this happened all kinds of soot & burnt powder residue went into the bolt & it left a circular burn the same shape & diameter as the primer. This was brand new Win brass. It wasn't loaded hot either. I had a total of 4 or 5 from the bag that did this.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07320.jpg

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07321.jpg

A while back I had a box of WLR primers that were defective. Winchester made good on it by replacing 2 bolt heads & a new box or WLR. but the bad ones would burn thru the back right at the edge where it rolls to become a radiused edge. They had micro cracks along that rolled edge. They made a real mess of a bolt face. The cases & primer shown in the photos caused me to have to disassemble the bolt & clean all the ash & residue out of it. When I'd chamber a round I could feel the action of it was all scratchy & tight.
Frank in Fla

[fgw_in_fla]

I just noticed something......

fla9-40 - Are saying this was bought in July of 2002 or July 2nd this year?.... It looks like July 2002 but it reads like July 2nd. If that's a new rifle that bolt face sure is a mess. It looks very much like mine did when the primer blew out the wrong direction. The hot gas & burning powder is hot enough to really trash out a bolt face. Since I had the issues mentioned, I keep extra bolt heads on hand for just such emergencies....

Frank in Fla

[fgw_in_fla]

Here's what mine looks like now after they've been cleaned up. I don't have any pics of the damage as they're in another computer that went DOA last year.

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/boltfaces001.jpg

Notice the pitting of the faces on the first & third bolts. It took quite a while to get them cleaned up & polished. The middle bolt is the most recent victim of a bad case & primer. I still haven't finished cleaning it up.
Frank in Fla

[thermaler]

I actually had a premium grade nosler factory round blow the primer cap off in my AR 10--so it can happen to anything. The reason I suspect a bad chambering of the OP is the off-center stamping he gets--but I'm just guessing. I have to admit I'm amazed Savage didn't at least replace the bolt head.

[fla9-40]

Thanks all for you input, sorry for getting back late.... busy weekend.

fgw_in_fla that was supposed to be July 02, 2012. Sorry about that. Also on the lube issue, I always store all my bolts after cleaning and spraying them down with gun oil in a plastic baggie inside a cloth bag. I also drop a couple of drops of FP-10 lube on all moving parts to store.

I have thought about, seeing Savage a has not fixed it, to buy a bolt head and try changing it out myself.
Do any of you have a link to aftermarket ones? I looked on Savage site and they do not sale them there, guess you have to call them to order one.

Someone suggested to me that it may not be a pressure problem causing the "Smiley Face" but instead the bolt being all my problem because of the damage it has suffered.

Here is the bolt AFTER it came back from Savage the first time:

http://www.nettally.com/kwd/Bolt-Face After repair.JPG


On all rounds fired the primers looked like the picture I posted in the original post. :confused:

Anyway thanks to all that has input suggestions here.

[fla9-40]

Do you think there's any reason to believe/not believe the gun might not be chambering properly? I would be expecting some funky misfire issues if they were primer related alone. I don't know if it ever happens in the bolt action world, but it's not too hard to blow up an AR receiver if it fires out of battery.

thermaler that has crossed my mind, but I would hope that Savage would of caught that when they checked the head space....maybe not! =(

[fla9-40]

... Sorry thought I could delete this one

[thermaler]

thermaler that has crossed my mind, but I would hope that Savage would of caught that when they checked the head space....maybe not! =( I think with a flexie stock and funky recoil lug--firing these things involves a bit of voodoo. If your firing quality factory ammo (though Federal doesn't fit that bill in my book) and you keep getting these results, then something may be wrong in the process of chambering and firing--which would cause me to cease using the weapon immediately--but that's just me.

[fgw_in_fla]

Therm - there will be no voodoo involved when shooting a Savage rifle. It tells you that in your owners manual.... Even if you do have to just about rebuild the Flex - o - Matic stock so it doesn't wiggle off the benchtop. It's all in good fun. Besides, some of the tightest groups I've shot were with an Axis / Edge.... A little TLC, a little OCD, some epoxy & a few hours time & presto.... Instant sub MOA shooter.

Hey fla9 - the bolt faces you have look alot like mine after I cleaned & polished them. I would suggest replacement of the bolt face. it's real simple to do & you might even find one on the classified area. I got a few from Midway for about $25 I think. Good luck with it.

Later y'all.... I just got home from the range & before I sort brass, log in targets & clean barrels, I feel a nap coming on strong.

Frank in FLa

[stinkitup]

PT&G are doing savage bolt heads and bodies now if you want an aftermarket one.

Ryan

[Gmac5]

WHAT IS A HAPPY FACE? REALLY, PRIVI AND S&B AMMO ARE PRETTY HOT , ADD IN THE FLA SUN AND YOU COULD HAVE ISSUES . FROM WHAT I CAN SEE THE MARKS ON THE CASE ARE NOT HEADSPACE RELATED ,THE MARKS ON THE BOLT FACE ARE A RESULT OF AMMO PROBLEMS , WHICH
HAVE PITTED YOUR BPOLT FACE , GET GOOD AMMO , DONT LEAVE IT IN THE CAR OR HOT SUN ! IM PRETTY SURE YOUR PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY
Hope this helps GARY

[fla9-40]

Hey fla9 - the bolt faces you have look alot like mine after I cleaned & polished them. I would suggest replacement of the bolt face. it's real simple to do & you might even find one on the classified area. I got a few from Midway for about $25 I think. Good luck with it.

Frank in FLa

Hey Frank I looked on Midway's site and did not find one, do you have a link to their bolt heads?

[fla9-40]

WHAT IS A HAPPY FACE? REALLY, PRIVI AND S&B AMMO ARE PRETTY HOT , ADD IN THE FLA SUN AND YOU COULD HAVE ISSUES . FROM WHAT I CAN SEE THE MARKS ON THE CASE ARE NOT HEADSPACE RELATED ,THE MARKS ON THE BOLT FACE ARE A RESULT OF AMMO PROBLEMS , WHICH
HAVE PITTED YOUR BPOLT FACE , GET GOOD AMMO , DONT LEAVE IT IN THE CAR OR HOT SUN ! IM PRETTY SURE YOUR PROBLEMS WILL GO AWAY
Hope this helps GARY

Hey Gary thanks for the input here.
I agree it does get hot here in Florida but I never leave ammo in my vehicles and when we shoot it is under covered stations not out in the direct sunlight. The "Happy Face or Smiley Face" as it is called is the half moon indention seen on the head of the brass. In the picture I put up it is the mark that runs at about the 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock area.

[Gmac5]

Do you mean the rubbing of the brass buy the bolt head? If so thats normal! The case !after firing is stuck to the chamber wall, then as you open the bolt ,the bolt turns ,brass is still stuck ,now at some point prior to your primary extraction the brass starts turning withe the bolt and you get what i see in the picture . Where do you live? Im in west palm bch fl

[fgw_in_fla]

I would say try here but it looks like they be outta stock. Try Numrich. Someone's gotta have them. They change out pretty easy, I mean you don't need an engineering degree or nothing like that.
Maybe some of the other guys will know of a place that has them, too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/451988/savage-arms-bolt-head-short-action-savage-10-to-16-push-feed-right-hand-22-250-remington-243-winchester-260-remington-7mm-08-remington-308-winchester


Frank in Fla

[thermaler]

Do you mean the rubbing of the brass buy the bolt head? If so thats normal! The case !after firing is stuck to the chamber wall, then as you open the bolt ,the bolt turns ,brass is still stuck ,now at some point prior to your primary extraction the brass starts turning withe the bolt and you get what i see in the picture . Where do you live? Im in west palm bch fl
Really? I just broke out the bag of brass from the couple hundred rounds I fired through both my 308 and 270 in the past two weeks--I don't see anything like that though one or two had an almost imperceptible roundish glossy spot and my bolt faces show nothing like the OP's.