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jhelmuth
09-24-2012, 09:33 PM
I had surmised the 7 as a type-o for a 5. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm a little fuzzy on your assertion regarding how "(s)tability is all about angular momentum..."

The 'amount of' gyroscopic stability required for a given bullet is primarily a function of its length. Weight is a factor, but a minor one in comparison to length. The primary reason why the 75 Amax will _always_ require a faster twist than the 77 SMK is that it's a _much_ longer bullet. If you can shoot the 75 Amax and get adequate gyroscopic stability for a given purpose/function, then the 77 SMK will always have greater gyroscopic stability under the same conditions. Therefore, if the 75 Amax will group and the 77 SMK won't, it ain't because of stability. :)

Actually... the SMK 77gr requires a faster twist than the 75gr AMax (not the other-way-around). Bullet manufacturers are your best source for twist rate requirements as they have more extensive test data and use more highly developed formulas for calculating twist rates than are generally used (such as the Greenhill formula). Bullet stability depends primarily on gyroscopic forces, the spin around the longitudinal axis of the bullet imparted by the twist of the rifling. Once the spinning bullet is pointed in the direction the shooter wants, it tends to travel in a straight line until it is influenced by outside forces such as gravity, wind and impact with the target. Rifling is the spiral or helix grooves inside the barrel of a rifle or handgun. The rifling grooves helix is expressed in a twist rate or number of complete revolutions the grooves make in one inch of barrel length. A 1-in-9 or 1:9 would be one complete turn in 9 inches of barrel length.
How important is twist rate? David Tubb, a winner of several NRA High Power Rifle Championships, was using a .243 rifle with a 1 in 8.5 twist barrel. He wasn’t able to get consistent accuracy until he changed to a rifle barrel with a 1 in 8 twist. The ½" twist change made all the difference between winning or losing the match.

A term we often hear is "overstabilization" of the bullet. This doesn’t happen. Either a bullet is stable or it isn’t. Too little twist will not stabilize the bullet, while too much twist, with a couple of exceptions, does little harm. Faster than optimum twists tend to exaggerate errors in bullet concentricity and may cause wobble. The faster twist also causes the bullet to spin at higher rpm, which can cause bullet blowup or disintegration because of the high centrifugal forces generated. For example, the .220 Swift, at 4,000 fps., spins the 50-grain bullet at 240,000 rpm.

One of the first persons to try to develop a formula for calculating the correct rate of twist for firearms, was George Greenhill, a mathematics lecturer at Emanuel College in Cambridge, England. His formula is based on the rule that the twist required in calibers equals 150 divided by the length of the bullet in calibers. This can be simplified to:


Twist = 150 X D2/L

Where:
D = bullet diameter in inches
L= bullet length in inches
150 = a constant

This formula had limitations, but worked well up to and in the vicinity of about 1,800 f.p.s. For higher velocities most ballistic experts suggest substituting 180 for 150 in the formula. The latest twist formulas use a modified Greenhill formula in which the "150" constant is replaced by a series of equations that allow corrections for muzzle velocity from 1,100 to 4,000 fps. The Greenhill formula is simple and easy to apply and gives a useful approximation to the desired twist. The Greenhill formula was based on a bullet with a specific gravity of 10.9, which is about right for the jacketed lead core bullet. Notice that bullet weight does not directly enter into the equation. For a given caliber, the heavier the bullet the longer the bullet will be. So bullet weight affects bullet length and bullet length is used in the formula.



The Greenhill equation includes no term for muzzle velocity, and several sources suggest replacing the 150 with 180 for muzzle velocities over 2800 fps. Increasing muzzle velocity increases bullet spin, and spin provides the stability. An article in the 11/2001 Single Shot Exchange cites an article by Les Bowman in the 1962 Gun Digest offering an equation which includes muzzle velocity (in fps):

T = 3.5 * V^0.5 * D^2 / L


At 2800 fps, this equation is equivalent to using 185 in the Greenhill equation, and at 1840 fps, this equation is the same as Greenhill's. Ken Howell wrote about twist rate in the 07/1999 issue of Varmint Hunter magazine. He mentioned Greenhill's work began with cannons in 1879. Two quotes Howell took from the Textbook of Small Arms (published in 1929 in Britain) are notable. "In actual practice Greenhill's figure of 150 can be increased safely to 200 and still control the bullet." The classic equation is for solid, lead alloy bullets of specific gravity (SG) 10.9, and "when the density of the bullet is less than that of lead or the density of the resisting medium is greater than that of air, the spin should be increased as the square root of the ratio of the densities." As SG decreases, the gyroscopic inertia of the bullet decreases in proportion, and one needs to increase the spin to compensate.

C.E. Harris, writing in the 08/1983 issue of the American Rifleman, noted Greenhill's formula was developed before spitzer boattail bullets and high velocity cartridges. He used a more modern analysis of gyroscopic stability, in which a factor of 1.4 is minimum and 1.7 is usually good. He found that the numbers given by Greenhill's original formula ranged from 1.5 to 2.0 for military type boattail bullets and were about 2.0 for bullets with either a flat base or short boattails. However, Don Miller has shown this older equation to not be accurate over the full range of bullet shapes and muzzle velocities. Miller's formula is expressed as:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/7/e/d/7ed2c55716b317ed71cf6dda26f5758a.png
where:


m = bullet weight in grains
s = gyroscopic stability factor (dimensionless)
d = bullet diameter in inches
l = bullet length in calibers
t = twist in calibers per turn


Given those definitions we can expand to...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/a/6/a/a6a4ca653e461b8fd83507f778827d24.png

where http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/b/9/e/b9ece18c950afbfa6b0fdbfa4ff731d3.png = twist in inches per turn, and

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/c/c/f/ccf097652a8716cc8ba28ee99721b83c.png

where http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/d/2/0/d20caec3b48a1eef164cb4ca81ba2587.png = bullet length in inches.
Stability factor

Using Miller's formula we can also calculate the stability factor assuming we already know the twist. Simply solve for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/0/3/c/03c7c0ace395d80182db07ae2c30f034.png.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/d/9/d/d9d418cdf5ede61f2e114768d74f8f77.png



To measure the "actual" twist of a barrel, use a cleaning rod and a tight patch. Start the patch down the barrel and mark the rod at the muzzle. Push in the rod slowly until it has made one revolution, and then make a second mark on the rod at the muzzle. The distance between marks is the twist of your barrel. Note that this may not be consistent over the entire length of the barrel depending on the type/method and control in machining when the rifling is cut.


Note: The formulas expressed here were taken from searches on the internet and are merely "copies" and not my actual work (such as from Wikipedia, etc.). Please use your own time and energy to research and understand how tist calculations have evolved and how this relates to bullet stability.

BoilerUP
09-24-2012, 09:49 PM
Actually... the SMK 77gr requires a faster twist than the 75gr AMax (not the other-way-around).

Again, I don't see how this is accurate...from either mathematics/science or experience.

The 77gr SMK is 0.994" long with a tangent ogive and a longer bearing surface than the 75gr A-Max, which is 1.11" long with a more secant/VDL design and shorter bearing surface. The Hornady 75gr HPBT is 0.987" long, and has a tangent ogive similar to the SMK.

Running all three bullets at 2600fps through a 1:9 barrel in a 500' ASL standard atmosphere in Shooter ballistic app (and JBM calculator at http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi), the 77gr SMK has a stability factor of 1.38 (JBM 1.353) while the 75gr A-Max has a stability factory of 0.97 (0.955 JBM)...or unstable. The 75gr HPBT has a stability factor of 1.37 (JBM 1.345)

Westcliffe01
09-24-2012, 10:00 PM
Hornady claims 2900fps for the superformance match (75gr) ammo from a 24" barrel. My barrel is 20" so MV will be reduced, but a few hundred more fps will help improve stability. The model 12's have a 26" barrel, so MV may be slightly higher.

helotaxi
09-24-2012, 10:22 PM
[SIZE=2][FONT=verdana]Actually... the SMK 77gr requires a faster twist than the 75gr AMax (not the other-way-around).

That's not correct. The Amax is a longer bullet and requires a higher RPM to be stable. Now if you're talking about the 80gn SMK. It's true that Sierra recommends a 1:8 for the 77gn but the facts don't bear out that recommendation as a requirement. The Amax on the other hand does require a 1:8 twist at least.

Also you can pretty much ignore the Greenhill formula when discussing long ogive, boat-tailed bullets since it better describes blunt bullets that are short for caliber.

If you both running the numbers for the Miller index for the bullets in question...well BoilerUP already did.

jhelmuth
09-24-2012, 10:31 PM
Again, I don't see how this is accurate...from either mathematics/science or experience.

The 77gr SMK is 0.994" long with a tangent ogive and a longer bearing surface than the 75gr A-Max, which is 1.11" long with a more secant/VDL design and shorter bearing surface. The Hornady 75gr HPBT is 0.987" long, and has a tangent ogive similar to the SMK.

Running all three bullets at 2600fps through a 1:9 barrel in a 500' ASL standard atmosphere in Shooter ballistic app (and JBM calculator at http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi), the 77gr SMK has a stability factor of 1.38 (JBM 1.353) while the 75gr A-Max has a stability factory of 0.97 (0.955 JBM)...or unstable. The 75gr HPBT has a stability factor of 1.37 (JBM 1.345)


The bering surface is the diff. You will find that there is ALOT of information on twist calculations (that is why I go with the Mfg. recommendations over any formulas). But the shorter bering surface gives the 75gr AMax a significantly better stability factor. My point in all the "formulas" is to show the progression in calculating twist rates and to emphasize that as bullet technology progresses, these "generalized" formulas don't always apply. As has been stated before, the AMaxes seem to stabilize fine in a stamped 1:9 Savage barrel (which I suspect is much closer to an 8.5 - what I measured mine at).

YMMV.... there is ALOT of science to this, but there is also ALOT of information required and these forum post serve to show how we CAN'T generalize (which is my point in all this).

M.O.A.
09-25-2012, 03:12 AM
I read some where that you have to subtract the tip on ballistic tip bullets witch would be why the A-max 75s would stabilize in a 1-9 barrel

Blue Avenger
09-25-2012, 03:20 AM
how do you subtract the tip?

helotaxi
09-25-2012, 07:56 AM
(which I suspect is much closer to an 8.5 - what I measured mine at).


Which is why that bullet was stable in your rifle. Bearing surface has nothing to do with bullet stability either.

And while the polymer tip is of a different material, it still has to be accounted for because it adds to the length of the bullet.

Litz devotes an entire chapter to spin and stability in Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting. Buy a copy and put it next to the john.

wbm
09-25-2012, 08:42 AM
A term we often hear is "over stabilization" of the bullet. This doesn’t happen. Either a bullet is stable or it isn’t.

Thank you!!

MZ5
09-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Ah, jhelmuth, you found the link to Miller's paper (http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_1.pdf), eh? Including Bill Davis' experience that 'overstability is a myth?' :)

Your internet searches suggest that you're mistaken. Work through the equations you've posted (or just look at the output from jbm that was posted), and you'll see that the Amax, with its greater length, has a significantly lower stability factor than the SMK for equal conditions.

If you're going to stick with the claim that the math is wrong, you face a couple of very tough challenges:
1) You'll probably have to produce some math to show how the existing math is wrong (for which I'd expect you to be lauded, at least by a narrow group), and
2) Remember that your favorable outcome with the 75 amax does not prove the negative that the 75 _doesn't_ need more twist than the 77 SMK.

When you discuss 'bearing surface,' I can only hope you're attempting to get at the fact that mass further from the center of rotation contributes more to the gyroscopic stability of a symmetric spin-stabilized projectile than mass nearer the center of rotation does. If so, you're on the right track, but seem to have something backwards. Your observation that the SMK has greater bearing surface (one might call it a larger 'average' diameter) supports the reality that the SMK is more-easily gyroscopically stabilized than the amax. This reality is accounted for in the Miller formula, and supported experientially in the paper wherein the shorter 70-grain 24-cal bullets were stable, whereas the longer 70-grain 24-cal bullets were not.

If you're making the claim that the specific mass and aerodynamic characteristics of the two bullets are such that the amax requires less gyroscopic stability than the SMK in order to maintain dynamic stability, that's fine, but again I think you're going to have to put up some math to show you've solved the necessary equations to demonstrate that reduced need; the overturning moment is higher in longer bullets (of a given caliber and weight; again accounted for in the Miller formula).

If all of this is a matter of you simply not being complete in either your statements or your supporting information, then please be more complete. :)

M.O.A. are you referring to Miller's work here ([url=http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_2.pdf)?

darkker
09-25-2012, 11:38 AM
Thank you!!

In terms of theory yes, but the reality is that there CAN BE over-stabilization, Kind-of.
I agree that something is stable, or not. However, nothing is perfect. So you see the effects of nutation, or Precession because of an imperfect center of gravity, or bullet that didn't engage the rifleing squarely. The effects of this are amplified with a faster and faster spin. Thus the term often refered to as, "going to sleep" in match shooting.

Bullets don't fly great, until they suddenly hit a definite and magic RPM; and then suddenly get destroyed. The over-stabilization begins a "wobble". Perhaps over-come, and the bullet "goes to sleep" and perhaps not.

jhelmuth
09-25-2012, 12:03 PM
Do we agree (or not) that stability is dependant on gyroscopic force (angular momentum)? If so, we'd have to compare the 2 bullets based on their cross sectional density, nose shape, base shape, jacket desity and thickness, etc.* I don't have the computer models for those factors, but I can tell you that the sectional desity for the 75gr AMax is closer to the 69gr SMK than is the 77gr SMK. Please note that in my original response I noted that the 77gr SMK is NOT stabil and that the 75gr AMax "seemed" stabil. I felt Neither was an appropriate bullet for the 1:9 Savage factory barrel, but did concede that the AMax "might" work over the 77gr SMK. I can't "prove" the math as I do not have access to those formulas. Maybe you can provede the math?

Sorry I don't have the other book the other fella mentioned, but I'm not just blowing smoke here (I own and read ."Understanding Firearm Ballistics - Basic to Advanced Ballastics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained" (4th ed.), by Robert A. Rinker). I may misunderstand something (and I'm happy to see where I make mistakes when shown). My point all along has been that applying simple formulas - Greenhill, Miller, etc. - DO NOT tells us if the design of ANY given bullet will or will not work when looking at the boundries of the factory stamped rifle twist rate. You can try it - and if it works for you, fine by me. I personally moved on to a CBI 1:8 so I KNOW I have the right twist rate and that I can stabilize the 75 AMax, the 77gr SMK, and the 80gr SMK (and others that are approved for a 1:8 twist).

If you are looking to pick a fight or just try to find fault in something, be my guest. But please try to be more constructive in "teaching" me where I'm wrong, and try not to rely solely on out-dated and/or incomplete information.

* see page 142 of "Understanding Firearm Ballistics - Basic to Advanced Ballastics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained" (4th ed.), by Robert A. Rinker.

Ah, jhelmuth, you found the link to Miller's paper (http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_1.pdf), eh? Including Bill Davis' experience that 'overstability is a myth?' :)

Your internet searches suggest that you're mistaken. Work through the equations you've posted (or just look at the output from jbm that was posted), and you'll see that the Amax, with its greater length, has a significantly lower stability factor than the SMK for equal conditions.

If you're going to stick with the claim that the math is wrong, you face a couple of very tough challenges:
1) You'll probably have to produce some math to show how the existing math is wrong (for which I'd expect you to be lauded, at least by a narrow group), and
2) Remember that your favorable outcome with the 75 amax does not prove the negative that the 75 _doesn't_ need more twist than the 77 SMK.

When you discuss 'bearing surface,' I can only hope you're attempting to get at the fact that mass further from the center of rotation contributes more to the gyroscopic stability of a symmetric spin-stabilized projectile than mass nearer the center of rotation does. If so, you're on the right track, but seem to have something backwards. Your observation that the SMK has greater bearing surface (one might call it a larger 'average' diameter) supports the reality that the SMK is more-easily gyroscopically stabilized than the amax. This reality is accounted for in the Miller formula, and supported experientially in the paper wherein the shorter 70-grain 24-cal bullets were stable, whereas the longer 70-grain 24-cal bullets were not.

If you're making the claim that the specific mass and aerodynamic characteristics of the two bullets are such that the amax requires less gyroscopic stability than the SMK in order to maintain dynamic stability, that's fine, but again I think you're going to have to put up some math to show you've solved the necessary equations to demonstrate that reduced need; the overturning moment is higher in longer bullets (of a given caliber and weight; again accounted for in the Miller formula).

If all of this is a matter of you simply not being complete in either your statements or your supporting information, then please be more complete. :)

M.O.A. are you referring to Miller's work here (http://[url=http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/bibliography/articles/miller_stability_2.pdf)?

jhelmuth
09-25-2012, 12:29 PM
For anyone wanting some additional "thoughts" on the subject, here is a good link to contemplate.... http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007/01/stabilization-mythology.html

BoilerUP
09-25-2012, 01:00 PM
From the link:


Longer bullets require more stabilizing forces to maintain stability.

The 75gr A-Max is 0.112" longer than the 77gr Matchking.

Using the JBM, Miller or Greenhill stability formula, the 75gr A-Max is ALWAYS less stable from a 1:9 barrel than a 77gr Matchking.

There's also the question of stability vs. accuracy.

While I've never shot the 77gr SMK, I can say from personal experience the 75gr HPBT will shoot half-MOA or better through my factory 1:9 barrel to at least 200yd, and is capable of repeatable nose-first hits on an 8" plate at 650yd assuming I don't dork the wind call. That might not be benchrest-winning accuracy, but it does indicate the bullets are stable.

M.O.A.
09-25-2012, 02:17 PM
how do you subtract the tip?

Pull the tip out

darkker
09-25-2012, 03:56 PM
Jhelmuth,

Didn't ever see that you posted your velocities in this discussion...
If they are different, then the spin will also be different. Did you consider that?
MV * 720 / Twist = RPM

Merely for thought, on Hodgy's site for the 77SMK we see velocities range(max mind you)from 2664 - 2811 fps
Simply in that range, we get a 11,760 rpm difference. So if the 75 was "moving" compared to your 77 load, that would appear as not being able to stabilize.

helotaxi
09-25-2012, 03:58 PM
Pull the tip out

And have fun figuring the BC of the resulting projectile.

helotaxi
09-25-2012, 04:04 PM
In terms of theory yes, but the reality is that there CAN BE over-stabilization, Kind-of.
I agree that something is stable, or not. However, nothing is perfect. So you see the effects of nutation, or Precession because of an imperfect center of gravity, or bullet that didn't engage the rifleing squarely. The effects of this are amplified with a faster and faster spin. Thus the term often refered to as, "going to sleep" in match shooting.


Also have to consider that if a bullet is having a problem listed, it isn't going to shoot great from a slower twist barrel either. That isn't describing "over-stabilization", that is describing a poorly made bullet or poorly made ammo. If the additional RPM is amplifiying an existing problem, the solution isn't to do away with the extra RPM. The solution is to address the actual problem. Get a bullet with better weight concentricity. Run the VLDs into the lands. Make more concenrtric loads that fit the chamber well. The faster twist of the barrel isn't the problem, it is merely highlighting the problem.

Westcliffe01
09-25-2012, 06:07 PM
Just to illustrate the "quality" issue, I received a bunch of American Eagle 55gr FMJ ammo when I bought my Galil. I also have PMC 55gr FMJ "bronze" ammo.

In my 10PC, the PMC ammo will shoot 0.5-1moa whereas the AE ammo is never better than 2MOA at BEST. I get the impression that the bullet quality in the AE ammo accounts for the majority of the POI shift/variation, with elevation shift added on top by poorer primer/powder metering. With the bullets, often the quality of the jacket can be a big factor, since a small variation in concentricity of the jacket (inside to outside) will introduce wobble and kill accuracy.

I did some experimentation on some 1950's 8mm mauser ammo and found that the biggest single contributor to inaccuracy was the bullet. Replacing the 196gr FMJ communist bullet with a current 190gr Hornady Bullet made a big difference (cut group size to less than half). It is just such a PIA to pull those military bullets I could not be bothered unless we have some other major ammo crisis, in which case I may have bigger things to worry about...

MZ5
09-25-2012, 09:15 PM
Sounds like you might be interested in McCoy's "Modern Exterior Ballistics," jhelmuth. A revised 2nd edition was just printed this summer. Amazon or other sources may still have copies. It has more math than most people will ever want, and more than most can handle (including me, nowadays). I don't think I need to post any math, though, because (and this is not said in a derisive way at all) you and I have already cited the applicable equations and references. I just think you're reading them wrong, or something. Miller's paper explains in the text how his stability equation implicitly accounts for density (for example), if that is not apparent in looking at it.

A main point of confusion for me, I think, is that yesterday at evening you said that "...the SMK 77gr requires a faster twist than the 75gr AMax..." not merely that a specific twist rate may or may not stabilize one or the other of those bullets.

All of the references you've cited thus far say that longer bullets require faster twists, and the Amax is the longer bullet. You said it was the opposite, and you cited 'bearing surface' and its impact on gyroscopic stability as the main reason for that. I couldn't figure out what that was supposed to mean, so I thought maybe you were talking about angular momentum. It seems now like perhaps you were? Tell me, which has the greater angular momentum:
1) A wheel with radius 1 foot that weighs 100 lbs, that has 99% of its mass at the perimeter, and that is spinning at 1,000 rpm, or
2) A wheel with radius 2 feet that weighs 100 lbs, that has 99% of its mass at the perimeter, and that is spinning at 1,000 rpm?

You mentioned some specific factors that would be needed to calculate more thoroughly, so here are some data on the two bullets in question, as taken from my copy of Litz's first edition of "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting," if they'll help you calculate some things for yourself, or help you explain to me/us exactly what and how these factors cause the longer but essentially same-weight amax to need less twist than the shorter SMK.

77 SMK
SD = 0.219 lbs/in^2
oal = 0.994 in.
shank length = 0.370 in.
ogive length = 0.484 in.
boat tail length = 0.125 in.
(the extra ~0.015" is in the heel after the boat tail cuts off)
boat tail angle = 7.0 degrees
tangent ogive
ogive radius = 7.05 calibers (1.579 in.)
Rt/R = 0.96


75 AMax
SD = 0.214 lbs/in^2
oal = 1.110 in.
shank length = 0.291 in.
ogive length = 0.619 in.
boat tail length = 0.180 in.
(the extra ~0.02" is in the heel after the boat tail cuts off)
boat tail angle = 8.0 degrees
secant ogive
ogive radius = 13.65 calibers (3.057 in.)
Rt/R = 0.68

Help us understand where you're coming from on this one, will you?


Do we agree (or not) that stability is dependant on gyroscopic force (angular momentum)? If so, we'd have to compare the 2 bullets based on their cross sectional density, nose shape, base shape, jacket desity and thickness, etc.* I don't have the computer models for those factors, but I can tell you that the sectional desity for the 75gr AMax is closer to the 69gr SMK than is the 77gr SMK. Please note that in my original response I noted that the 77gr SMK is NOT stabil and that the 75gr AMax "seemed" stabil. I felt Neither was an appropriate bullet for the 1:9 Savage factory barrel, but did concede that the AMax "might" work over the 77gr SMK. I can't "prove" the math as I do not have access to those formulas. Maybe you can provede the math?

Sorry I don't have the other book the other fella mentioned, but I'm not just blowing smoke here (I own and read ."Understanding Firearm Ballistics - Basic to Advanced Ballastics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained" (4th ed.), by Robert A. Rinker). I may misunderstand something (and I'm happy to see where I make mistakes when shown). My point all along has been that applying simple formulas - Greenhill, Miller, etc. - DO NOT tells us if the design of ANY given bullet will or will not work when looking at the boundries of the factory stamped rifle twist rate. You can try it - and if it works for you, fine by me. I personally moved on to a CBI 1:8 so I KNOW I have the right twist rate and that I can stabilize the 75 AMax, the 77gr SMK, and the 80gr SMK (and others that are approved for a 1:8 twist).

If you are looking to pick a fight or just try to find fault in something, be my guest. But please try to be more constructive in "teaching" me where I'm wrong, and try not to rely solely on out-dated and/or incomplete information.

* see page 142 of "Understanding Firearm Ballistics - Basic to Advanced Ballastics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained" (4th ed.), by Robert A. Rinker.