What size group possible with factory 12FV .223

[ctrout]

When I say that my gun will shoot in the .2s, it is a valid claim. It has done it enough times that I can make that claim. I never said that I have the skill to shoot to my gun's capability every time. MY gun WILL shoot in the .2s with regularity. MY ability is about half that of my gun. When I do my part, the gun does its part and .2" groups are the result. The biggest issue that I fight is the fact that there is almost never a day where I live that there isn't at least a 10mph wind.

[WhitBri]

ctrout, what load shoots the .2s for your gun if you don't mind me asking. I know every rifle isn't the same, but may give me an idea of where to go with a load. I showed mine, will you show yours? ;D

[Quickshot]

I hope I'm not butting in on a blooming argument here but this has been of interest to me as a die hard Savage shooter. I have a Mod. 12 BVSS that I bought used in a big Choate Varmint stock and shot it that way for 2 years at paper with 60 gr. Bergers and was a competitor and sometimes winner at our local paper shoots. Decided to make a change and use it to shoot groundhogs. I put barrel and action in a B&C Medalist and shoot 36gr. Barnes Varmint Grenades to avoid ricochettes. 36gr. Var. Gren.- 27gr. Varget,- Win. case- Win. pr.- neck sized- light Lee crimp- 1.845 to ogive- moly coated- 1-9 twist. I wish I had figured out how to send the picture as yet still not well versed on computer usage. 5 bullets, one ragged hole covered by a dime and no visible tears at the edge of the dime. Cool day no wind. 100yds. Hell, I thought all Savages shoot that way. Quick

[docsleepy]

Quickshot-- with such a light bullet and considerable powder behind it, you are probably getting a pretty high velocity. Possibly high enough to get on the top of the barrel whip (a la Varmin Al's barrel whip theory), and thus have a considerable advantage in getting smaller groups. I went as small as a 40grain bullet and the bullets were still going higher and higher on the targets (because they were exiting closer and closer to the time of the maximum upward excursion of the barrel as it whipped due to the impulse sound shock wave in the metal barrel created by the powder ignition).

You may be getting your light bullets out at the peak of the whip movement, where the barrel is still for a moment.

[docsleepy]

In an attempt to reach the point where bullet exit occurred at the peak of the barrel whip (or even possibly to the up-movement timeframe) I went as low as 40 grain bullets with about 8 ounces of weight on the muzzle and demonstrated that finally the point of impact began to move downwards. Adding weight as I did, mechanically slows down the whip movement and gives the bullet a chance to exit earlier on the "whip" movement. I documented that my faster bullets finally were not striking quite as high as before, but I didn't use as much powder as you are. So even without the weight, you may be reaching the optimal point.

To read VarmintAl's thesis and watch the videos of his finite element analysis of barrel movement, see: http://www.varmintal.com/alite.htm

My .223 (with 68 grain Hornadies, not the above techniques) [carefully bedded cheapo Tupperware stock] does about .40 inches center to center for 5 consecutive shots when I am at my best. Thats in a competition where I was respectable but not winning by a LONG shot. I have once in a while seen slightly better and not infrequently seen 0.625, all with handloaded ammo. Maybe once in my life I've seen 5 consecutive below 0.375. That is definitely at the skinny side of the bell curve for my 12FV! With Remington Match I get about 0.5 or slightly worse. With Walmart crimped cannelured Remington UMC, the groups may be 1.5 - 2 inches at 100 yards. I don't think I have the best barrel out there. I'm replacing it with a Shilen 6PPC bull barrel / 6PPC bolt / custom stock, and we'll see what I get then.

[possum1]

Well yaw's got me all messed up now. I've got to figure out how to start whupping bullet's. How yaw catch them little booger's coming out the barrel so fast to whup em. Seriously though I've read varmital's thesis on barrel whup, does make sense to me. If all handloader's are like me your still trying to shoot the same hole. I'm still trying to catch them booger's though ;D

[brianinca]

>>>
under .5 inch with every group some as low as .26 but that was only with one five shot group so might be luck. My question is what are other people getting for groups on a regular basis with their loads, not just a single occurance. I don't want to set my expectations too high and spend a lot of money experimenting with loads when I should be saving it for a new barrel/ rifle/ etc.
>>>

Don't act like you're on dope. Seriously, a barrel, ANY barrel, that is under .5 MOA for EVERY group out of doors is shooting GREAT. Put 5 groups of 5 together, what are you talking about in terms of average group size?

Don't take the "I shot 5 shots into .015 inches at 100 yards" as anything other than a pinch test. As in, I looked into a bag of results and pinched the best one I could find.

If you want a picture of how hard it is to be truly scientific about statistical analysis, look at the garbage code the Brits put out for their global warming hockey stick; otherwise, just be pleased you can pull a .3 MOA group out of your nether regions every now and again.

My club's range is infamous amongst all the benchrest weenies for the goofy winds that they have to deal with, instead of 3 windflags they all have 9-12 out to 200 yards, and they delight in trying to dope out the results. Are you reading wind like that when you shoot?

Like I said, .5 MOA is damned good and be happy with it.

Regards,
Brian in CA

PS MY 12FVSS in a B&C VarTac with my Zeiss and a cheesy Midway discount bipod will shoot .5's with all 4 223 recipes I handload, prone. My wife can't shoot prone (DD's) but her 10FP-LE1A shoots 3 of those loads .5 MOA as well (75 A-Max's no workee in a 20" tube).

[WhitBri]

Brian in CA
That was my thoughts when starting this topic that I should just be happy with the load I have load up a bunch of them and shoot and quit wasting money experimenting with a rifle that has no better capabilities then a consistent .5. You are right about the wind, I try and shoot on calm days, under 10mph wind only, but that could be a lot of the difference in group size alone.
Thanks for everyone's input on this topic.

[basshusker]

69SMK at 2.33 to 2.34 oal over 26 of varget. One pretty hole. Fed 205, LC 09 brass
55 Nosler BTs at 2.33 other stuff the same. Same pretty hole but doesn't do quite as well in the wind. Super fun if you are shooting at stuff other than paper.

75G Hornady BTHP 23.8 of 8208 XBR with BR4 primers. They 70s, 73s and 75s do better with the thicker primer cups of the BR4s and the hotter loads in my Savage 12 LRPV

[fatdaddy]

>>>>PS MY 12FVSS in a B&C VarTac with my Zeiss and a cheesy Midway discount bipod will shoot .5&#39;s with all 4 223 recipes I handload, prone. My wife can&#39;t shoot prone (DD&#39;s) but her 10FP-LE1A shoots 3 of those loads .5 MOA as well (75 A-Max&#39;s no workee in a 20" tube).<<<<<<

Posting some pix of the DD&#39;s Would be a fine addition to this conversation... ;D Bill

[1Shot]

Posting some pix of the DD&#39;s Would be a fine addition to this conversation... ;D Bill


...I don&#39;t know about his DD&#39;s but this might be a good fill in..lol..http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/M-1.jpg

[fatdaddy]

Now THATS what im talkin about... Now I cant shoot prone ..... :o Bill

[steveinwv]

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,29625.0.html

Model 10FCP-K .223. A good Model 12 should do the same.

[1Shot]

...On a good calm day out of my VLP that I only shoot every now and then...I have other guns to play with...lol..
Nosler 69&#39;s, Lapua, 25grs Varget, 205M&#39;s with alittle jump.. ;)..
...5@100...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/sqek/nos.jpg

[BrentWin]

A box stock 12FV did take the inaugual IDDSA Championship.

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,26079.0.html