target vs. standard actions

[AKArcherdaddy]

Hi folks,

I'm working on a new precision rifle. Accuracy will be the most important factor, so I'll sacrifice versatility to get it if I need to, but if possible I'd also like to be able to hunt with it. I'm going for either a 6.5x47 Lapua or a 260 Rem with a 3 groove 8.5" twist custom barrel. I'll probably go with about a 24-25" barrel, and I'll probably build it on a tactical style stock similar to a Macmillan A5.

What are the differences between a standard Savage short action and a Savage target action (other than the obvious things like a magazine port on repeaters and feed/ejection port options on the target actions)? Are the Savage target actions manufactured to tighter tolerances than the standard (repeater) actions?

In other words, what can I expect to gain by sacrificing a repeater action for a single-shot target action?

To give this some perspective, I'd like to achieve 1/4-1/2 MOA accuracy. Top competitive benchrest accuracy is not needed, but the more accurate, the better. However I'm not willing to build a 15 pound rifle just to get below 1/4 MOA. Ideally I'd like an 7-9 pound rifle.

Thanks!

[82boy]

This subject has been covered a few times in the past, general consensus is that the target actions are no more accurate than a standard action, and to go one farther a short action is no more accurate than a long action.
The target actions are built in the exact same way as the other actions, they do not have better tolerances. They are warped, and need the same attention as a standard action.
So to answer your question: "what can I expect to gain by sacrificing a repeater action for a single-shot target action?" The answer is nothing.
The good news is 1/4-1/2 MOA is easily achieved with a factory rifle, and with work it can only get better.

[AKArcherdaddy]

Thanks, that is good news. This will be far from a factory rifle. As a matter of fact, given (per your advice) that a target action is a waste, about the only thing factory about this rifle will be the action. Of course I'm hoping for 1" 300 yard groups, and I think it might be achieveable, but I'm trying to stay realistic too. I do intend to let Fred at SSS work his magic on it before installing the barrel myself.

Is there any reason to have SSS actually install the barrel? I'm pretty handy at barrel swaps in the meantime, but are there Fred can do or check when installing a barrel that I can't? Alignment, truing, etc?

My father-in-law is having a top bench-rest gunsmith build the same rifle (same barrel from the same maker, maybe even the same reamer) on a Rem 700 action. I really like my Savages, and as much as a love the guy, it sure would be fun if I could build one for half the cost of his that's just as accurate :)

[82boy]

The only reason I can see to pick a target action over a standard action is the dual port, is the bee's knees. It is well worth it, to feed from the left and eject to the right. Some people like left port left eject as well. The only other advantage I can see is if you was shooting a factory class and was limited to production parts the target accu-trigger would be nice for that.

No real advantage to having Fred screw the barrel on, He does the same thing as anyone else he places the barrel in a vise, and places a go gauge in the chamber and screws the action on, and locks the nut.

I am sure you will have no problem with that rem. I have seen savage compete with bat actions and hold their own.

[memilanuk]

Actually... thats not entirely true. There are a few small & subtle mods to the Target Action. They are 100% cnc machined, but IIRC after seeing the results (and the payback) the factory quickly got several banks of cnc machining centers (I counted at least 12 machines). The new hole spacing should make them considerably stronger in terms of what kind of pressure the action can withstand. The bolts for the Target Actions get some special treatment, or at least are going to here soon - specifically to combat the 'dishing' that occurs during the tumbling/polishing process. The bolt heads are supposed to be spec'd with a little extra meat on the bolt face and around the web area, so that after the whole head is polished and shiny, those surfaces can be machined true again before assembly. I believe thats part of Savage's continuing improvement process... eventually I'd expect these things to filter their way into the main production process, but for now this is just for the Target Actions. There was something else in there too but I can't recall everything, and I didn't write it down at the time...

[pd721el]

FWIW Most off the bullets that really shine in 6.5 are 130 and 140's. These are long for weight and require a little faster twist then normal. I would go with a 8 twist instead of an 8.5. I would also check with the barrel maker and see that it is a true 8 twist and not an 8.3 or something. This applies more to button rifling then to cut. The 8.5 may work for everything you end up shooting but it would suck to not have it stabilize say the 140 VLD when all it came down to was ordering an 8 instead of an 8.5. I have an 8 twist and love it. I would also leave the barrel 26, you cant add but you can shorten later if you like.
I in general disagree with 82boy on the target actions. Not that I think he is wrong as I have seen some pretty amazing 10 and 110 action custom guns (and have one ;D). However If complete accuracy was what I was after I would use one of the single shot target actions, to include the dual port. I feel that the lack of the mag well opening and smaller eject port will make the action stiffer. Even if this doesn't affect the accuracy. It helps when hanging a big heavy barrel off it. Plus you don't have to worry about max OAL and the mag box. I would definitely send it and have it T&T. Good insurance for the little bit that is cost. Might just check with Fred and see if he has any already T&T for sale.

[lwink]

good info 82boy, and I'm guessing sharpshooter might stop in soon. He was the one that informed me as I made this same decision about a month ago -- there is no reported difference in accuracy between target and standard actions, the only advantage we are sure of is the left port/dual port options. Even with a 28" bull barrel weighing in at 8lbs + he assured me that stiffness was of no concern with either the model 12 action or the target action. Finally, according to him and savage there is no accuracy difference between single shots and repeaters (again however, single shot actions are sure nice for bench shooting). Obviously, it's up to you, but if you want any versatility concerning hunting I'd go with a standard repeating action, just my .02 after going through what you are.

[sharpshooter]

The new hole spacing has nothing to do with what kind of pressures the action can withstand. The holes were moved to provide more threads for the action screws and more pillar contact.
I had heard that the bolt head issue was being addressed, but unless they are now making them in house, there were always manufactured by an outside vendor. The biggest concern wasn't the dish in the boltface, it was extraction issues caused by the oversize bolt face diameter.
The target actions were the first to made on the new Okuma machining centers and can be identified by the series of vertical numbers under the tang. Most of all receivers all made on the new machining centers by now.

[Joe O]

I have a new LRPV in .204 ruger.I bought it mainly because of the left port and accuracy from a production gun.The ,"out of the box"accuracy was excellent with factor ammo (.333) ,but there are issues with primer cratering and ejection.The bolt cut out VS the care diameter is too large,contributing to the cases dropping as soon as they clear the chamber,more than half the time.The bolt face is dished as well.All the primers show cratering,regardless of which factory load or primer used,indicating a firing pin too small for the hole.I sent pics and info to Savage and am waiting for enginering to get back to me.The firing pin protrusion on my gun was .052,and a gun smith adjusted it to .033,but there was no noticeably difference in the primers.If Savage doesn't correct the problem,I'll have the pin bushed,and not buy another.

[358Hammer]

I have a number of timed and trued actions. Both Target actions and Striker actions.
I also have more untrued actions than trued. I do not own a gun that doesn't shoot 1" groups @ 300 yards.

It is not worth the effort for me to indicate an action in. The target actions are closer to tolerances than the magazine welled actions. I am a hunter first and limit shots to 600 yards or less so I do not need to squeeze that little bit more accuracy (possibility) out by trueing a action.

Neal

[Smokepole]

I agree 358Hammer. The typical T&T is just to correct problems caused by tolerance stackup. The fact is, manufacturing tolerances follow bell curves. Most parts will fall in the high area of the curve and that's what the designing engineers plan on. So most actions will have an optimal tolerance stackup. Some will have a super nice stackup where inaccuracies in this part make up for those in the other and so on. Some will be straight up lemons. The two latter cases are on the tails of the bell. It behooves the owner to shoot it and see how it does before making a decision to T&T.

I would venture to say that the higher perceived accuracy in machining of the target actions is due to better stability in heat treat due to the larger cross-section where the magazine well would have been.

Now, if you're like me, and don't mind goofing around; a Savage isn't that hard to time or true since everything is based off the threads. I just turned a mandrel between centers and threaded it. I slipped my receiver on there, faced it off, then did the same to the nut. I lapped in the lugs previously. No big deal. A Remmy on the otherhand...

[Roger rodbolt]

As most shooters know, the majority of the accuracy is in the barrel, chamber, ammo/bullets, and bedding. However if you are interested in target accuracy or thinking competition instead of field use, the stiffer action and larger bedding areas or the target action is a plus. The longer and heavier the barrel the more action flex becomes an issue, hence the use of bedding blocks in long range competition guns. If the standard action is good enough for most folks that's fine and I still own a couple but now have more target actions and why not? The bedding advantage alone is worth the small price difference. The solid bottom and smaller port cutout make the large difference in stiffness and that's a bonus. Small things add up and in my case less group "flyers" is what's to be gained.

[memilanuk]

The new hole spacing has nothing to do with what kind of pressures the action can withstand. The holes were moved to provide more threads for the action screws and more pillar contact.

I agree, thats the primary reason. But the engineers at the factory said that when they tested them to failure, the newer actions took more pressure (150k vs 125k)



I had heard that the bolt head issue was being addressed, but unless they are now making them in house, there were always manufactured by an outside vendor.

Still are, doesn't mean they can't change what specs they send to the vendor.


The biggest concern wasn't the dish in the boltface, it was extraction issues caused by the oversize bolt face diameter.
The target actions were the first to made on the new Okuma machining centers and can be identified by the series of vertical numbers under the tang. Most of all receivers all made on the new machining centers by now.


Yep. From the sounds of it they yelped at the price a little at first, but once the new machining centers were operational, they crunched the numbers and figured they would pay for them in 8-9 months tops. Pretty good ROI ;)