Another oil question

[efm77]

I like Rem-oil for certain applications but it tends to evaporate too quickly. Although it does claim to leave behind a teflon film. 1jonzmith you're right about the synthetics being more stable than conventional oils. I also like the Breakfree CLP's and LP's for the same reason. They are synthetic too. The CLP says it works down to -65F, colder than what I want to be in. I'll have to look it up to see if the Mobil 1 is good down that low or not. I've got some left over 10w40 in it and bought a bottle of 20w50 just to have a heavier oil for certain firearm applications. Maybe real cold might call for some 0w30 or something similar.

[1jonzmith]

I like Rem-oil for certain applications but it tends to evaporate too quickly. Although it does claim to leave behind a teflon film. 1jonzmith you're right about the synthetics being more stable than conventional oils. I also like the Breakfree CLP's and LP's for the same reason. They are synthetic too. The CLP says it works down to -65F, colder than what I want to be in. I'll have to look it up to see if the Mobil 1 is good down that low or not. I've got some left over 10w40 in it and bought a bottle of 20w50 just to have a heavier oil for certain firearm applications. Maybe real cold might call for some 0w30 or something similar.


I have a large aero can on my bench. I use it on guns I shoot regularly and oil/clean often. When it is gone it won't be replaced. It lists two ingredients....Petroleum and aero propellant. No-No on the Dino Petro. For me anyway, as the protectant for long term storage.

Now, here is the problem with Mobil One and ATF. Real gun oil has additives that clean powder residue and other stuff associated with firearms. M1 doesn't have those...Are they important? Not if they are there to help the oil flow, penetrate and adhere to metal cause M1 does that a different, and better, way. I use CLP before I apply the full syn and wipe it down.

[efm77]

Agreed. I don't really us CLP for cleaning. It cleans somewhat but not quickly or thoroughly in my opinion but is a good lube. If I need to clean my gun thoroughly it gets gunscrubber to clean powder residue etc. from the action and the barrel gets cleaned with foaming bore cleaner or some other appropriate cleaner/solvent. So I have no problem with M1 not cleaning as I use it for lube/protection and that's what if works good for. I may even try some Royal Purple sometime as I use it in my truck and like how it works for it.

[jhelmuth]

You guys who are talking about "synthetc" oil "stability" might want to read up on the subject. The "stability" that synthetics refernece is about sheer (which is a term used to refernece the break down of the molecular chains which gives motor oil it's desired protection properties). Higher temps typically lead to early break down - so "Temp Stability" is not what you are implying with respect to how you are using it on your rifles. Since sheer is not a factor in this case (used on rifes), then those attributes in motor oil have no real benefit (or none that I can identify) over other lubricants. There may be some protection from the added VI packets and cleansers, but I'm not privy to anything there either.

Suffice to say, motor oil is probably not going to hurt your rifle (BTW... careful with ATF - it makes a good paint/finish remover). However, don't think that it will be something of a miracle or otherwise for your rifle either. Particulalrly the synthetics (which have several forms and none of them will have any benefit to a rifle - at least not a bolt action rifle anyway).

[efm77]

Right or wrong on the stability thing, I still think the synthetic motor oil works good as a lube/protectant even on firearms. I think the biggest thing is no necessarily which lube you use as long as you're using some type of lube.

[1jonzmith]

?This is a really an in depth discussion and analysis. http://www.jwmercantile.com/infooil.html
on oils, terminology, comparisons , etc. ad nauseam.
The following quote is taken from it....

The synthetics offer the only truly significant differences, due to their superior high
temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits,
stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics. Synthetics are superior
lubricants compared to traditional petroleum oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is
justified in your application.

For gun applications, I think we can ignore “High temp. oxidation resistance” as a relevant
performance feature. Much of the rest is interesting and pertinent...such as “high film strength”.
That is why syn has such great rust preventative performance. It has a film that doesn’t tire of
“sticking” and slide off of the metal, as petro oil does. “Leaves no deposits” so scrubbing the old
oil off of the gun has less of requirement. “Lower temp flow” so the gun mechanisms don’t
become sticky or jam in sub zero temps and consequently one viscosity can be chosen for , say,
80 degrees and that will perform well at all temps. AND “Stable Viscosity Base. In the
discussion this is partly redundant to “Lower Temp Flow”.

An oil’s viscosity can be changed by using it to a excessive degree. The theory being that the oil
wears out by “shearing the oil molecules, thereby shortening them, and lowering the viscosity
number due to oil thinning that results from shorter molecular length. I have read that this is a
laboratory possibility “only” and cannot be experienced in application to any degree that the oil
would be made to perform differently at any point in its life cycle due to being “worn out”. But
as any engineer will tell you “no statement, regardless of how complete or correct in terms of
application, cannot be contradicted on the remotest of irreverent possibilities”. They are trained
to do that and are graded on their abilities to fault almost anything.

Please understand that it is not I that is saying that you are not correct in your statements....Rather
it is the squirrel that put together that treatise on oils. He is the academic and the expert on the
subject. I only consider my self expert on three fields and one of those pertains to straight hetro
sex. The other two, as well, don’t pertain to oil.

Now, about your post:

Quote
You guys who are talking about "synthetic" oil "stability" might want to read up on the subject.

It is rude to come out of the chute with a blatant contradiction of another. Your parents should
have impressed this universal truth upon you in Grammar School. It isn’t a high echelon
behavior in a mature man and you don’t well reflect. The subject of your comment is becoming
apprised of a subject that one is demonstrably ignorant about. You can verify this opinion by
reading up on “Acceptable Social Behavior and Etiquette”.



The "stability" that synthetics reference is about sheer (which is a term used to reference the
break down of the molecular chains which gives motor oil it's desired protection properties).

I used the word stability. It means what I want it to when I use it and I have complete license in
that so long as there are more than one accepted or understood definitions. In this case I was
referring to the most associated characteristic of “viscosity” stability due to temp delta. No one
could possibly expect a bolt action rifle to wear out oil, of an type, and reduce its viscosity in any
degree let alone a degree that would impact it’s ability to lubricate in that application.


Higher temps typically lead to early break down - so "Temp Stability" is not what you are
implying with respect to how you are using it on your rifles.

I meant what I was implying and what I clearly stated, as well. As far as it refers to temp
stability for a gun lubricant, temp stability can only refer to potential ambient temperatures.
While syn might still perform at 480 degrees F that fact is superfoules . Ambient, as far as the
Fed and the Military are concerned, is -40 to +125 F. Out side that temp. range the operation of
a rifle is not possible due to the operator being inoperable,,,if not dead.



Since sheer is not a factor in this case (used on rifes), then those attributes in motor oil have no
real benefit (or none that I can identify) over other lubricants.

I don’t know that “sheerability” is a oil performance spec in syn or petro base stock oils. If each
were subjected to the same “sheering” the reduction in viscosity, I expect, would be equal as a percent
of viscosity change. Due to syn having better film strength and thusly outperforming petro metal
contact prevention, I would expect any operating cycle to reduce the syn less.

There may be some protection from the added VI packets and cleansers, but I'm not privy to
anything there either.

Suffice to say, motor oil is probably not going to hurt your rifle (BTW... careful with ATF - it
makes a good paint/finish remover).

We weren’t talking of it being benign. Rather the point was made the syn is patently better at
lubrication and rust prevention. The link directly contradicts you on that opinion. Thanks for the heads up on the ATF and finish impact.


However, don't think that it will be something of a miracle or otherwise for your rifle either.

To the degree that syn out performs Petro oil I think, at least in the common vernacular, miracle
is appropriate. What else would you call it? Better?


Particularly the synthetics (which have several forms and none of them will have any benefit to a
rifle - at least not a bolt action rifle anyway).

I believe you are completely wrong on this statement. Completely! You, or I don’t have to read
too deep on this topic to come to that conclusion. I don’t see how this common fact could have
escaped you. I am however interested greatly in seeing any credible source support your position as
it will refute something I consider fact. As always, I appreciate being proven wrong as it
indicates a learning experience. Empty contradictions are a different story.

You hijacked my thread. The subject was “OIL”. You changed the subject to “My technical
competency”. Your opinion of me or my intellect or integrity are absolutely none of my
business. I have only made you a topic in that regard as a rebuttal in the same vein as your post.
I hope in the future you show some respect for me and others on the forum. I am your elder and
even without regard to that, I am a fellow forum member. You can feel free to contact me by PM
if you need the license for more base communication. You have to understand that the forum is
read by many hundreds and any insult is broadly witnessed. Unless, of course, that is your
desired result. Use PM’s

I am collecting date on the relative benefits of oils and other lubricants in their application to
rifles. From that you can duplicate and verify results AND run the same controlled experiments
and test other oils and add their performance to the findings for the edification of the forum at
large. This would not prevent any of us being contradicted out of hand but it would allow a sort
of peer review.

Thanks for your comments,

John

[efm77]

Wow. While what he said was rude and un-called for, I don't think it was bad enough to warrant that kind of rant. It wasn't like he called you a ............. fill in the blank. Anyway, the thread had already been hijacked as all of us, including me, the OP, got off topic. The topic wasn't about what oil is better than the next. It was about how to keep your action properly lubed while not getting too much to run on to the ammo which can cause dangerous bolt thrust issues due to lack of friction against the chamber wall. So thanks guys for answering my question, I appreciate all the info. I think I'm going to leave this thread alone now.

[jhelmuth]

So first off... no insult was meant. Sorry you interprited it that way. That is always a bit of a danger in reading the wrtten word - you can interprit it in the tone of voice you want it to be.

So again... my apologies.


Now as you pointed out so well, this is a very big community. So I felt it was appropriate to point out the need to be careful with ATF around finishes, along with making the commentary that sheer stability is THE goal with sythetics. I'm OK that you want to use stability in whatever context you wish. I don't find that there is anything bad about having to research more about products. As I pointed out, I do not believe that Synthetic motor oils will be harmful - but at the same time, don't expect miracles.

Again... there was no intention meant or direct at your intelligence. Information IS a good thing here as well as most anywhere the internet reaches. Many times people take our posts as "gospel". I'd always suggest that more fact finding is beneficial for the reader before taking the laymans word (particularly mine).


All the best,

Jim

[jhelmuth]

Wow. While what he said was rude and un-called for, I don't think it was bad enough to warrant that kind of rant. It wasn't like he called you a ............. fill in the blank. Anyway, the thread had already been hijacked as all of us, including me, the OP, got off topic. The topic wasn't about what oil is better than the next. It was about how to keep your action properly lubed while not getting too much to run on to the ammo which can cause dangerous bolt thrust issues due to lack of friction against the chamber wall. So thanks guys for answering my question, I appreciate all the info. I think I'm going to leave this thread alone now.


Agreed. +1

Just wanted to apologize. Let's leave this for what it is.

[1jonzmith]

Wow. While what he said was rude and un-called for, I don't think it was bad enough to warrant that kind of rant. ............

Awwwww beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


So thanks guys for answering my question, I appreciate all the info.

You are certainly welcome. Why else would we do this except to be of service to each other.

I think I'm going to leave this thread alone now.

Now don't be offended "e". We was just "fun'n" a little. Between the lines there was info and humor.


That syn thing is a matter close to my heart. I went a good while not understanding it at all and I had prejudices that kept me from taking advantage of the product. Have you ever heard that Syn is just highly refined "waste" petroleum oils. I did and the argument and explanation made a lot of sense at the time and at my level of technical education on the subject. Seems that the Germans invented the stuff in WWII to deal with the allied oil embargo that was throttling(pun intended) the Wehrmacht. They made syn gasoline, diesel, aviation gas and lubes and oils. They might have used old motor oil, who knows. What is known is that syn can be made from any hydro carbon and a favorite was "Natural Gas" but coal or corn oil or gasoline can be made to work. It was an interesting read back when I read it and I am sure I have forgotten 90%. I recommended it if you have interests mechanical or machine. It is a wonder product in the inherent quality of the stuff and its breadth of applications.

All is well e, all is well.

John

[Hooker]

Militec-1 NSN:9150-01-415-9114 works very good on metal especially after it heats up. It actually soaks into the metal according to what I have read. My bolt feels wet all the time. I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

[1jonzmith]

So first off... no insult was meant. Sorry you interprited it that way. That is always a bit of a danger in reading the wrtten word - you can interprit it in the tone of voice you want it to be.

So again... my apologies.

Your apology is good with me. Yes it is a "flat medium" and it is subject to misinterpretation. That is why I have made it a habit to ad qualifiers, softeners and tone modifiers to anything I think might be subject to misunderstanding. The people that can write without fear of being misunderstood are Poets, Prof. Writers and Lawyers. I am none of those so I tend to walk on eggs sometimes.


Now as you pointed out so well, this is a very big community. So I felt it was appropriate to point out the need to be careful with ATF around finishes,

Concern for the "group welfare" is admirable. I share that with you. Otherwise, why talk? You can get all the info you need without helping another soul or risking a confrontation by just lurking.


along with making the commentary that sheer stability is THE goal with sythetics. I'm OK that you want to use stability in whatever context you wish. I don't find that there is anything bad about having to research more about products. As I pointed out, I do not believe that Synthetic motor oils will be harmful - but at the same time, don't expect miracles.

Again... there was no intention meant or direct at your intelligence. Information IS a good thing here as well as most anywhere the internet reaches. Many times people take our posts as "gospel". I'd always suggest that more fact finding is beneficial for the reader before taking the laymans word (particularly mine).

And mine as well. Often a poster will set off a thread that guts the common wisdom and really opens up a topic. Sure there are divergent positions but we all benefit from the dialog and new data. I too am a humble person and many have said mine is a false humility. But I assure you that my humility is the virtue of which I am most proud. And my best, as well.


All the best,

Jim


Say good night Gracie.

[efm77]

"I think you're worrying about this a little too much. I often swab the chambers of my rifles with a chamber mop and Kroil or Rem-oil, then wrap a dry patch around the mop to make an attempt to remove the excess, then call it good. I store the rifles barrel-up in the safe, and undoubtedly small amounts of oil from the bore find their way down into the chamber. When I get to the range, I may or may not pass a dry patch thru the chamber. I have fired thousands of rounds like this with no issues whatsoever.

Don't misunderstand; I do agree that it's better to have the chamber reasonably dry. But if you don't have it perfectly clean, dry, and absolutely oil-free, I don't think it's a cardinal sin. I do understand your concern though. I obsess about a lot of things rifle-related that others may scoff at too. But for whatever reason this is not one of them. "

Sorry to bring up an old thread but been thinking a little again about what you said here barrel-nut. Where you said when you got to shoot that you may not swab out the chamber. Have you ever noticed or felt a little bit of oil on your brass after you've fired it if you didn't swab out the chamber? I sometimes find a tad on the brass that comes from the bolt sliding across it while it's in the magazine as rounds are being cycled.

[Stockrex]

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/bolt-maintenance-methods-materials/

[barrel-nut]

Efm, I won't go so far as to say that I never have felt any oil on my brass after firing, but I don't recall it being noticeable, or even present at all, the vast majority of the time. And no, I don't feel that my bolts are getting oil on my rounds. I generally only wipe down the outside of the bolt with a very light coat of Rem-oil, and then once in a while I'll grease the backside of the bolt lugs with some bolt lug grease that I got from Sinclair, that comes in a handy little syringe that has a curved, pointed snout for easy application. Then I'll wipe off the excess from that too. So I think maybe the reason I've not found this to be a problem for me is that I use very light oil (generally Rem-oil) as my final step in cleaning and then lubricating the chamber and barrel. As a previous poster noted, if applied sparingly, Rem-oil tends to disappear (evaporate?) over time, rather than run and accumulate.
I'm not trying to imply at all that your original question was invalid, or that having an oily chamber or rounds is not a problem. I'm just saying that for me, with the methods I use, it's never been a noticeable issue. Maybe we should both try this- "If in doubt, swab it out!" (with a dry patch or mop of course)

[mazda3gun]

Forgive me for being ignorant.
How does oil/lube on the brass/shell cause any issues?

[barrel-nut]

When a round is fired, the 50-60+K pressure inside the case causes it to immediately expand outward to fill the chamber. This pressure is enough to cause the outside of the case walls to "grip" the chamber walls. This supposedly helps to transfer some of the recoil forces through the barrel walls and into the recoil lug, where it's supposed to go. The OP was concerned that having an oily chamber would prevent that grip, thereby transferring all of the recoil force into the bolt head, possibly damaging it. OP please correct me if I'm off base here. Or anybody else for that matter.

[mazda3gun]

Thanks! Wasn't sure why it's such an issue to require this much debate and discussion. I clean my firearms religiously, well my SR40 anyway, it's my daily carry and defense arm. It likes to be clean even though a Ruger sponsored fella shot one 5,000 rounds through several competitions and weather events before cleaning. But I've never had a problem out of it when I first got it and shot a few hundred rounds, then my CCDW instructor who I'm friends with, took it and inspected it and said I had too much grease and oil in it that it should've jammed up. He was very surprised, said, "My Glocks would never shoot like that!":cool:
So I guess my point is: cleaning is relative to how often you shoot, how long it sits unfired, and what kind of crappy foreign cheap ammo you cram down the pipe. (if you buy factory loaded that is)
I've seen guys with nothing but a brass brush, brake parts cleaner, and kerosene in a squirt bottle to clean a gun. Also, my Glock-loving instructor put his in the sink with Dawn for about 10 minutes, slung out the water and we went and shot another 100 out of it.

All in all, I keep my 110 in operating order since I never know when I get an urge to go stalk some deer. I just wipe with syn gun oil on the entire bolt assembly, light grease on the action grooves and run a brush/patch through the barrel after it's fired. That's about it and I've never had an issue. I also don't shoot a comp gun so I'm not nearly obsessive to that regard. It's a reliable deer/coyote killing bolt rifle!

[efm77]

Barrel nut you're pretty much right. I usually wipe mine down with CLP to where a sheen is visible on the bolt body and it operates pretty slick that way. Always been told and seen that most arms (bolt actions included) operate better a little on the wet side. I can feel and see the oil on my finger when I wipe it across the bolt body. Sometimes I can see/feel it on the brass where the bolt slides over the top round that's in the magazine but not always. But that's just one strip on the whole case. My thinking is that the entire case has to have a pretty thick coat on it in order for it to be a problem especially after reading the varmint al's article posted on the first page. I'm just not sure if my train of thought is correct or not. So far I've had no problems though, but sometimes it's still in the back of my mind. I do usually swab out the chamber though before I shoot or go hunting anyway but still wondered about that little strip on the brass getting back in to the chamber.

[Willy]

Do you mean ATF as in Chrysler ATF?? And exactly what are you referring to as the cocking ramp?