6.5 Grendel

[davemuzz]

Oh heck man.....if you want to shoot 'em at longer than 200 yards, then just do what I did....and get a Shilen barrel in 6.5 Swede and bolt in onto either a short action (yes...this will work even with berger VLD's) or a long action....load some 140gr. bullets....shut up....and go shoot anything at 500 yards with all the confidence in the world. ;D

[thomae]

Before we get our respective panties in a knot, remember that when discussing 30-30, 7.62x39 and 6.5Grendel, we are discussing three different types of bullets.

It's like discussing Apples, Oranges, and Nectarines.

Both 30-30 and 7.62x39 are 30 caliber bullets (the x39 either .308 or .311 depending on your rifle and loads), but the 30-30 is a round nose bullet and the x39 is pointed, possibly boat tailed. Thus we have for each bullet a different ballistic coefficient (BC), which translates to a difference in how fast the friction of the air slows down the bullet.

The 6.5 bullet, if it is the same weight/mass as a 30 caliber bullet, is a smaller diameter, thus thinner and longer.
This translates into a higher BC, i.e., less slowing due to air friction. Thus the 6.5 bullet retains its speed for a longer time and distance.

Kinetic energy = 1/2MV2 (1/2 times the Mass of the bullet times the Square of the Velocity of the bullet)

Therefore the retained Kinetic energy of the 6.5 bullet is proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity, so since it retains more velocity downrange, it retains much more energy downrange (For example, if it is moving twice as fast, it has 4 times the energy).

I will not argue about your specific numbers, nor will I argue about your particular experiences (especially since you guys are all better shooters than I am!), but I also will not argue with physics. ...after all, it's the law. ::)

[Eric in NC]

[color=purple]Before we get our respective panties in a knot, remember that when discussing 30-30, 7.62x39 and 6.5Grendel, we are discussing three different types of bullets.

It's like discussing Apples, Oranges, and Nectarines.

Both 30-30 and 7.62x39 are 30 caliber bullets (the x39 either .308 or .311 depending on your rifle and loads), but the 30-30 is a round nose bullet and the x39 is pointed, possibly boat tailed. Thus we have for each bullet a different ballistic coefficient (BC), which translates to a difference in how fast the friction of the air slows down the bullet.



The 30-30 isn't always round nosed! I have 5 30-30's that I load for and none of them use round nosed bullets. A 168 grain tipped boat tail turns them into a solid 300 yard deer gun.

The thing to remember with all the cartridges that are made to try to shoehorn more "oomph" into the AR is that they may be a great cartridge within the limits of the AR platform. Why accept those limitations when you are working with a more versitle system like a Savage? 6.8 SPC (special purpose cartridge - the "special purpose" was to work in an AR!), 6.5 Grendel, etc. are all severly limited by trying to fit and function in an AR.

[earl39]

The thing to remember with all the cartridges that are made to try to shoehorn more "oomph" into the AR is that they may be a great cartridge within the limits of the AR platform. Why accept those limitations when you are working with a more versitle system like a Savage?

The simply answer is "Because we can" otherwise everyone would only have a 22lr, a shotgun, a 30-06, and a 375 H&H. Almost forgot the Red Ryder bb gun.

[Eric in NC]

Of course that is always a valid answer!

But a 6.5mm BR would be even more of a good thing!

[davemuzz]

Almost forgot the Red Ryder bb gun.


Oh My Gosh!!!.......I forgot all about the RR-BB Gun. That's a classic that should be put on the A\R platform!! I don't know why this hasn't been thought of before. Earl is a Genius!!! ;D

[thomae]

The 30-30 isn't always round nosed! I have 5 30-30's that I load for and none of them use round nosed bullets. A 168 grain tipped boat tail turns them into a solid 300 yard deer gun.


Very good point, Eric. Thanks for mentioning it.
For the sake of argument, I was trying to make my point by comparing three different types of bullets.
I was not trying to imply that ALL 30-30s had to use round nosed bullets, especially today, considering the newer 30-30 loadings available. Because you are using a bullet with a higher BC (due to the more "streamlined" shape of the projectile) it has more energy at longer ranges (than the round nose bullet) because it is still at a higher velocity than the round nosed bullet with the same weight and diameter at any given distance.

I think it is very nice that I live somewhere where I can have the rifle and caliber of my choice (which may or may not appear logical or stupid to others) just because I want to. ;)

[earl39]

Grendel feeds from a magazine much better than a br does otherwise i might be more inclined to agree.

[MrMajestic]

Maybe somebody should tell her that the 6.5 Grendel isn't a good Whitetail caliber! ::)
(exit side, entrance is just below ear )
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc505/majesticcnc/111111NCDoe264LBCAR123grA-Max.jpg

[davemuzz]

Well heck....here in Pa. we can't even use semi-auto's for big game. So it really doesn't matter....at least for hunting in Pa.....what caliber you get for an A\R. However, if you are hunting in a State that allows 'em, then it probably does matter.

Last year for the first time I hunted pronghorn in WY. I took one with my 6.5 Swede. Bang....Plop. Now, in all fairness, I probably would not have taken an A\R no matter what the caliber because I've hunted for over 40 years with bolt action or lever guns. Just what I've cut my teeth on and what I'm comfy with.

But for coyotes or other "vermin" I'd gladly use the A\R platform. The 6.5 Grendel would probably be a good choice for that and with quality glass, it would be a good 'ol time on the prairie. ;D

Good BC of the 6.5 bullets and "cheap" reloading of the smaller Grendel case.

MHO

Dave

[VA Bigbore]

I'm sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier, but I have been really busy at work. Another poster made my point for me in that if comparable weights and bullets are used then similar results would be obtained. And for the record, I do believe the Grendel cartridge is a respectable deer cartridge within its reasonable limits; Same as the 30-30. Agreed, the 6.5 Swede will outrange, and out perform any of the other cartridges discussed thus far in this thread. I routinely use my .260 Remington for deer sized game and it performs exceptionally well. If one believes the Grendel gives acceptable performance at extended ranges, then I am not going to change their mind. But you won't convince me that it does either. I have no problem with confirming that my 336 chambered in 30/30 Winchester is perfectly capable of taking deer at 200 yds with a 150gr Core-loct, because I have done it. I'll agree that 200 yds is acceptable range for the Grendel cartridge as well, and possibly to 300 but no more. Beyond that it is time to get a bigger cartridge. To compare a 120gr bullet ballistically with a 170gr bullet is not reasonable. Then consider the bullet shape there is no comparison. As I said in my original post, I am a 6.5 Grendel fan, but I also do not believe the hype that surrounds this cartridge. True Grendel proponents will argue that the 6.8 SPC cartridge is not good enough for 300 yd deer sized game however the ballistics for the 6.8 and the Grendel are almost identical to that range. A lot of people are not capable of shooting that far, accurately. And I'm sorry MrMajestic, but posting a picture of a fawn shot in the head proves nothing about bullet performance. Especially one where the exit hole is along the jaw line, which could be interpreted as a near wounding shot and not a killing shot. Pictures such as these do not "help" us as hunters. They only provide fodder for the anti's.

Lets just agree to disagree on the validity of the claims placed on the 6.5 Grendel. It is a capable cartridge and one I like, but I do not believe it is the proper choice for deer sized game at distances beyond 300 yds.

[davemuzz]

VA Bigbore.....+1. Good post. I can't disagree with anything you have said.

FWIW

Dave

[MrMajestic]

VABB, That was a mature NC Doe and, if you read the post, the entrance hole was just below the offside ear as I was at an elevated position to the target. Perhaps you are not capable of making that shot and you should restrict your ranges accordingly. I, on the other hand, practice several times a week at ranges to 600 yards and any shot I attempt is made with a high degree of certainty for humane results.
FYI, that post was made "tongue in cheek" realizing that that it proves nothing however as this is America we all may use the caliber of choice within the laws of the individual state. I stand behind my choice and belief that higher terminal energy in no way makes up for a poor shot. ;)

[JASmith]

I strongly disagree with comments to the effect that "The Grendel lacks enough power to be effective beyond 300 yards for deer-sized game."

I also strongly AGREE that 300 yards is the practical range limit for most hunters independent of their rifle. Most of us would have hitting that "wide wabbit" even 1 out every 2 shots at 300 yards. The 12" rabbit is as big or bigger than the vital zone on deer and one must be sure of a better 1st-shot hit than 50% to approach the ideal of ethical shots.

For me, if I were buying a bolt gun, I'd go with a 260 Remington for the same applications as the 6.5x55 since I can use it in shorter actions. If I were buying an AR15 frame, I'd go with the Grendel and accept that the difference in muzzle velocity means a steeper trajectory and some challenges at ranges beyond 300 yards.

[BjornF16]

Got a 10 CFM in 7.62X39 with a 22" sporter weight Pac Nor, 8tw, Grendel chambered tube screwed on. Shoots 3/4 MOA average and wouldn't hesitate shooting whitetail to 500 yards with it. 123 grain A-Max chrono's 2575 fps and that gives it plenty of retained energy at that range. Remember, "Shot placement is King, adequate penetration is Queen and the rest is just dancing on the head of a pin"!


MrMajestic - I am very interested in converting 10 FCM to Grendel. Some questions: 1. What is the maximum magazine length for the 10 FCM magazine? 2. What Pac-Nor barrel profile did you get? 3. What is the weight of your gun?

thanks, Björn

[thomae]

BjornF16, I can answer your question as I own one also: The FCM is set up for a standard short action detachable mag. The 7.62x39 mag that comes with it has an overall internal mag length (because of a spacer that Savage puts in the rear) of approximately 2.46 inches.

You could easily replace that mag body, spring & follower with a .223 mag body, spring & follower or a standard short action .308-family mag body, spring & follower if you so desired. If you do, there are those (like me) who would likely be happy to purchase your newly-redundant mag body. :D

[BjornF16]

BjornF16, I can answer your question as I own one also: The FCM is set up for a standard short action detachable mag. The 7.62x39 mag that comes with it has an overall internal mag length (because of a spacer that Savage puts in the rear) of approximately 2.46 inches.

You could easily replace that mag body, spring & follower with a .223 mag body, spring & follower or a standard short action .308-family mag body, spring & follower if you so desired. If you do, there are those (like me) who would likely be happy to purchase your newly-redundant mag body. :D




Thanks for the info.

I think 2.46" would be plenty for the Grendel. The AR15 Grendel is limited to 2.26" COL due to the magazine.

Björn