Bolt handle swap between 110 and Axis

[HANDYANDY]

Ok, everyone, that was me replying in post 2 back in February 2012. The Savage bolt knob will in fact bolt on to the Axis bolt. It will lift the bolt, but if you look closely (which I admit that I did not do until after Sharpshooter made his comment about primary extraction), the primary extraction ramp is in a different place on the Axis when compared to the traditional Savage/Stevens bolt. You can shoot and perhaps, like HANDYANDY, not have a problem extracting some of your brass. However, sooner or later, (especially with hot handloads) you may have brass stuck and without the additional leverage that the factory primary extraction ramps give you, it may prove very difficult to extract that brass. When I said what I said in post number 2, I had not shot the Axis rifle with the Savage bolt handle on it. I put the Savage handle on the Axis, took photos, and then took it off.

No one is calling HANDYANDY a liar or disputing his own experiences. No one is suggesting that the entire bolt assembly can be switched, either. What is clear is that although the Savage bolt handle can be successfully bolted on to the Axis bolt, it will not provide the primary extraction necessary to aid in extracting spent brass after firing. That is what Sharpshooter, Gmac5, and 82Boy have posted. There should be nothing confusing in this. It may not be the answer that one or more forum members wish to hear, but it is the correct answer.

You may do what you will; that does not change the answer to the original question.


I hope this helps.

FWIW: Sharpshooter is not some kind of Savage God...but he has a great deal of knowledge, has much practical experience, and I have learned a lot from him. (Edit: Please don't misinterpret that last sentence...it is meant as a strong compliment.)

Thanks, I really didn't mean to stir the pot in any way, shape, or form. As I said, I was just going off of my own experience on the subject. I did after looking more closely notice that the extraction ramp is indeed located differently, and I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong about something. I'll save the handle for a Stevens project I've got coming up, and I'm going to order one of those KRG bolt lift knobs for the axis. I know it says it's for the 700, but I'm sure I can grind out, or epoxy in whatever I need to do to make it fit. It's just a simple clam shell bolt knob cover, but it will suite the purpose of me buying the other one in the first place, which was to have better bolt control while wearing gloves. Thanks again for clearing this all up, and I'm sorry if I upset, or misinformed anyone. I really do enjoy having a knowledgeable group of people to consult who don't decide to help based on the amount your rifle is worth.

Andy

[HANDYANDY]

does anyone have any experience with a possible solution the the very anemic size of the bolt knob? I checked the KRG one a little further, and I think it will actually work out pretty nice, It's supposed to be very durable. I'm also happy about the fact that I can paint it before installing, and not have to paint the whole handle.

Andy

[Gmac5]

Ive just returned from a refreshing few days in the tenn. Mountains, ive got a brain fart, the good for me ,meaning i came up with a fairly simple solution to the bolt knob . I myself have tried it and it works great! Any length size ,made outa aluminum, end user easily installed. That last statement is gonna be tested on some local shooting buddies before i post the " how to " here
Gary

[HANDYANDY]

Ive just returned from a refreshing few days in the tenn. Mountains, ive got a brain fart, the good for me ,meaning i came up with a fairly simple solution to the bolt knob . I myself have tried it and it works great! Any length size ,made outa aluminum, end user easily installed. That last statement is gonna be tested on some local shooting buddies before i post the " how to " here
Gary I can't wait to see what you've come up with!!

[Gmac5]

Im on my 3 rd proto type. It should be good to go in a few weeks, easily installed by anyone who has basic skills,took shop in school, over21 years of age, and has man hands . No kust kidding ,I think!
Gary

[rcs36]

I CAN Not agree more with sharpshooter, it will feel as if it works , with no fired cartridge in the chamber, once you actually fire a cartridge and try using a 110 bolt handle you will NEED A FAIRLY large dead blow mallet to extract your case each time you fire. It would ruin your range day, and may destroy your extractor by using more energy than needed for extraction .
GARY

Really Gmac5? At the time of this post have you tried it for your self? I will say, NO.

The stock handle, in its design, that little ramp on the handle, provides such a small amount of primary extraction that it might as well not have any at all.

[thomae]

Really Gmac5? At the time of this post have you tried it for your self? I will say, NO.

The stock handle, in its design, that little ramp on the handle, provides such a small amount of primary extraction that it might as well not have any at all.

A thread that is over 14 months old is resurrected for this?

First of all, as you can see, Gmac5 is no longer a member of this forum.

Perhaps you didn't mean to come off as if you were in attack mode, but that's how it comes across to me.

Perhaps you could simply relate your own experiences. Instead of simply saying that someone else is wrong, tell us what you have been doing so we can understand why and how your experience differs from that of someone else. Possible things to discuss would include answering some or all of the following questions: What chambering is your rifle? How many rounds? factory or hand loads? Perhaps some velocity information or additional load information if you are using hand loaded ammunition.

Please remember that just because something works for you does not mean that it must work for others. Perhaps Gmac5 may have needed that big hammer to extract his rounds. Perhaps you don't. It's ok that you two may have different experiences.

Primary extraction is that initial little bit of extraction, aided by leverage, to get the empty brass to just start to move out of the chamber. It does not have to be much at all.

Below is a video (admittedly not specifically about Savage rifles) that, among other things, explains primary extraction.

As you lift the bolt handle, the primary extraction ramp on the "...bolt handle contacts the primary extraction cam (ed note: on a savage 10/110 rifle, what Mr. Potterfield refers to as the primary extraction cam is the sloped ramp on the rear baffle. On an Axis/Edge rifle, the primary extraction cam is in a slightly different location and is actually part of the receiver)...this forces the bolt to the rear, starting the extraction of the cartridge case from the chamber."

Primary extraction as it relates to the bolt handle is an integral part of the operation of modern bolt action rifles. Without it, it can, at times (notice I didn't say "always"), be very difficult to remove spent brass from the chamber.

In spite of my (at that time, admittedly ignorant), posts earlier in this thread, the Savage 10/110 bolt handle installed on an Axis will not provide primary extraction.

It is not too difficult for someone with the proper tools to sand or grind down the Axis bolt handle ball and either screw or glue a larger bolt handle end in order to make it easier to grip and/or to provide additional leverage.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47mPQjjGrns[/QUOTE]

[rcs36]

A thread that is over 14 months old is resurrected for this?

First of all, as you can see, Gmac5 is no longer a member of this forum.

Perhaps you didn't mean to come off as if you were in attack mode, but that's how it comes across to me.

No, I did not know that Gmac5 was no longer a member.
Yes, I was in attack mode as his post was BS.



Perhaps you could simply relate your own experiences. Instead of simply saying that someone else is wrong, tell us what you have been doing so we can understand why and how your experience differs from that of someone else. Possible things to discuss would include answering some or all of the following questions: What chambering is your rifle? How many rounds? factory or hand loads? Perhaps some velocity information or additional load information if you are using hand loaded ammunition.

I am shooting only factory rounds. 270 cal. If you want to load your own "hot loads", do so at your own expense. The stock handle will not help you if you have a stovepipe. As you know, no factory gun will guarantee proper operation if using hand loads.

Please remember that just because something works for you does not mean that it must work for others. Perhaps Gmac5 may have needed that big hammer to extract his rounds. Perhaps you don't. It's ok that you two may have different experiences.

Primary extraction is that initial little bit of extraction, aided by leverage, to get the empty brass to just start to move out of the chamber. It does not have to be much at all.

Below is a video (admittedly not specifically about Savage rifles) that, among other things, explains primary extraction.

As you lift the bolt handle, the primary extraction ramp on the "...bolt handle contacts the primary extraction cam (ed note: on a savage 10/110 rifle, what Mr. Potterfield refers to as the primary extraction cam is the sloped ramp on the rear baffle. On an Axis/Edge rifle, the primary extraction cam is in a slightly different location and is actually part of the receiver)...this forces the bolt to the rear, starting the extraction of the cartridge case from the chamber."

Primary extraction as it relates to the bolt handle is an integral part of the operation of modern bolt action rifles. Without it, it can, at times (notice I didn't say "always"), be very difficult to remove spent brass from the chamber.

In spite of my (at that time, admittedly ignorant), posts earlier in this thread, the Savage 10/110 bolt handle installed on an Axis will not provide primary extraction.

Who needs it? Those that shot "hot loads", live with it, and then the occasional stovepipe, that happens to be a part of a shooters life. None the less, the stock handle provides very little primary extraction. Enough said!

It is not too difficult for someone with the proper tools to sand or grind down the Axis bolt handle ball and either screw or glue a larger bolt handle end in order to make it easier to grip and/or to provide additional leverage.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47mPQjjGrns[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the copy and paste from a deleted post on this same topic.

[thomae]

Thank you for the copy and paste from a deleted post on this same topic.

You are quite welcome. It's one of the few perks of being a moderator.
(Although I hear that my pay will be doubled on 1 January :rolleyes:)

I do have a question for you. Would you please explain what you mean by "stovepipe" when referring to a bolt action rifle?

Thanks, and I wish you and yours a merry Christmas.

[rcs36]

You are quite welcome. It's one of the few perks of being a moderator.
(Although I hear that my pay will be doubled on 1 January :rolleyes:)

I do have a question for you. Would you please explain what you mean by "stovepipe" when referring to a bolt action rifle?

Thanks, and I wish you and yours a merry Christmas.

OK, You got me there. Now I feel dumb. I have always thought that a stovepipe was when the end of the casing expanded to much, once fired, causing it mold itself to the inside of the chamber, thus making it hard to extract.

WRONG IGNOID!

A stovepipe is a failure to feed issue, not an extraction issue.

I stand corrected.

[J.Baker]

Really Gmac5? At the time of this post have you tried it for your self? I will say, NO.

The stock handle, in its design, that little ramp on the handle, provides such a small amount of primary extraction that it might as well not have any at all.


Thank you for the copy and paste from a deleted post on this same topic.

I would suggest you take a minute to listen to and learn from your betters Mr. RCS36, because if you continue to act so arrogant and obstinate in your posts (like the one above) you're not going to be welcome here for very long.

As was discussed in the other thread, while a 110 bolt handle will bolt right in place on an Axis and it will perform the basic function of opening/closing the bolt, that does not mean it's a suitable part for the Axis. As was explained, using a 110 bolt handle on an Axis will result in having no primary extraction which can (and usually does) become an issue in terms of extracting fired cases from the chamber. You might not ever notice it or have a problem on small cases like .204 Ruger or .223 Rem, but as you move up to larger diameter cases with more surface area to grip the chamber it WILL become a problem. It's not solely an issue for handloaders as you have implied as even hot/high pressure .223 factory loads can result in the case sticking, and if you don't have any primary extraction (mechanical leverage) to start the extraction you'll end up having to beat on the bolt handle to dislodge the case to allow it to be removed.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it's right or that it will work as intended. In the end it's your gun and you can do whatever you like with it, but just because you choose to ignore the facts doesn't mean me and the other moderators are going to allow you to come on here and pass bad/incorrect information on to others.

[ShawneeB]

OK, You got me there. Now I feel dumb. I have always thought that a stovepipe was when the end of the casing expanded to much, once fired, causing it mold itself to the inside of the chamber, thus making it hard to extract.

WRONG IGNOID!

A stovepipe is a failure to feed issue, not an extraction issue.

I stand corrected.

Actually it is not a feed issue but IS an ejection issue that can happen in both semi auto pistols and rifles. Simply put, a empty casing does not clear the ejection porr, the slide or bolt depending on firearm comes forward trapping it in the port. It sticks out like a stovepipe in a roof but not always straight up,, hence the terminology "stovepipe"

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Actually it is not a feed issue but IS an ejection issue that can happen in both semi auto pistols and rifles. Simply put, a empty casing does not clear the ejection porr, the slide or bolt depending on firearm comes forward trapping it in the port. It sticks out like a stovepipe in a roof but not always straight up,, hence the terminology "stovepipe".


This was my thoughts but I thought it better to let someone else mention it, just in case I was wrong. And, it wouldn't be the first or last time!

[rcs36]

Thank you ShawneeB for clearing that up for me. I tried, yesterday, to look it up, but I got an explanation that was also wrong I guess. Thanks again.

[ShawneeB]

Your welcome RCS. Yes Norcal you had it right and heck we all get stuff wrong that's why we have buddies to correct us:p There is an easy way to clear it too, specially 1911's without tall target sights to snag (I never had a problem comps with stock sights). Swipe your left hand back towards you muzzle to hammer, clears the casing, racks the slide, and ready to keep shooting. Common occurrence when we shot Ipsc and PPC weekly and practiced 5 days a week, gotta learn to clear fast!

RCS. google "stovepipe bullet casing" good pics both pistols and rifles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=stovepipe+bullet+casing&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4K65UuDkEeuK2AWq0ICoBg&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=960&bih=520

[rcs36]

Your welcome RCS. Yes Norcal you had it right and heck we all get stuff wrong that's why we have buddies to correct us:p There is an easy way to clear it too, specially 1911's without tall target sights to snag (I never had a problem comps with stock sights). Swipe your left hand back towards you muzzle to hammer, clears the casing, racks the slide, and ready to keep shooting. Common occurrence when we shot Ipsc and PPC weekly and practiced 5 days a week, gotta learn to clear fast!

RCS. google "stovepipe bullet casing" good pics both pistols and rifles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=stovepipe+bullet+casing&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4K65UuDkEeuK2AWq0ICoBg&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=960&bih=520

Thank you ShawneeB. That confirms that I understood it as you explained it.

Now, before this thread gets to far off topic, can you help me with a term to use when a casing gets stuck in the chamber? If there is one.

Sorry if to much of a burden, I can look it it up for myself.

[ShawneeB]

Sure. Those are called PITA's! I don't think there is a common name for that other than just "stuck case", could be though. I have kept a chunk of brass rod in a shooting box 3/16, 1/4 and drop if from the muzzle. Lot of times it will work it out with a few drops.

[rcs36]

Sure. Those are called PITA's! I don't think there is a common name for that other than just "stuck case", could be though. I have kept a chunk of brass rod in a shooting box 3/16, 1/4 and drop if from the muzzle. Lot of times it will work it out with a few drops.

Thanks again ShaweeB! PITA. I get it. Pain in the ect. LOL. What length is your brass rod to drop the casing from the chamber?

Merry Christmas all!!

[ShawneeB]

About 4 inches is what I use. You can use one as long as you like, more weight. Bigger bore, bigger diameter. Big enough to stick out a pistol if you need one since kinda hard to use an inertia drop. Had a Beretta 96D and found it would not eject wolf, took a nylon mallet tapping a brass rod to get that PITA out. I don't normally shoot wolf but was all I could find at the time in 40. Never had a 1911 in 45acp stick a case though!