What would you ask Savage to improve?

[gotcha]

O.K. back to the subject............... Would anyone else like to have a bolt that cocks on closing rather than the cock on opening abomination?

[82boy]

O.K. back to the subject............... Would anyone else like to have a bolt that cocks on closing rather than the cock on opening abomination?

Nope,
I have played with rifles that the bolt cocks on closing, and I dont like it, it also slows down the process.

[Eric in NC]

O.K. back to the subject............... Would anyone else like to have a bolt that cocks on closing rather than the cock on opening abomination?

Nope,
I have played with rifles that the bolt cocks on closing, and I dont like it, it also slows down the process.


I don't care either way on a target/hunting rifle - have both, but I completely disagree with you on the speed issue. Enfields have to be the fastest operating bolt guns I have ever worked with.

[efm77]

Pardon my ignorance but where can I find an explanation of how the timing works? I understand it's supposed to make the bolt lift easier. I always just thought that the hard bolt lift was due to Savage using very stiff firing pin springs to speed up the lock time. I've built several now but haven't looked into that too much. My little brain thought process was always: How's it out of time when it's fully cocked when I lift the bolt handle fully and the cocking pin is caught by the sear when the bolt handle is closed? In other words nothing was bound up so I thought it worked fine.

[82boy]

I don't care either way on a target/hunting rifle - have both, but I completely disagree with you on the speed issue. Enfields have to be the fastest operating bolt guns I have ever worked with.


All I can say is get a reworked, Savage or Remington, or better yet get a Panda or a Bat, sit it beside a Enfield and see which one you can operate the fastest. You may be suprised. The pushing on the bolt to get the bolt to cosk and close, will slow down opperation more than you think. This is why competition guns do use cock on close technology.

[82boy]

Pardon my ignorance but where can I find an explanation of how the timing works? I understand it's supposed to make the bolt lift easier. I always just thought that the hard bolt lift was due to Savage using very stiff firing pin springs to speed up the lock time. I've built several now but haven't looked into that too much. My little brain thought process was always: How's it out of time when it's fully cocked when I lift the bolt handle fully and the cocking pin is caught by the sear when the bolt handle is closed? In other words nothing was bound up so I thought it worked fine.


Try reading this. http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,4899.0.html

About the best way i can desribe timming is it is placing the cocking to where it is fully cocked, at the higest point, and has the longest duration of firing pin travel. The bolt lift is from the heavy spring, and inproper geomotry of the ramps. Timming is nothing new, or amazing, Benchrest shooters or their gunsmiths know it the best.
Lets put an example when you cock you savage, and you start to drop the bolt, if you feel the handle where it wants to jump a few degrees from top on the way down. (It usualy moves about 5 degrees then no jump, you can push it the rest of the way closed.) this is decocking, the firing pin looses travel, it also means that the gun is overcocking. (Going further than it can go do to the geomtry.) Placing the gun in time means that the bolt cocks at the top of the ramp, and keeps the inertia, and alows the firing pin to traven without disruption. (trying to describe this in lamans terms.)

[Eric in NC]

You know, I have tried all of those, but never in a repeater stocked for offhand work with aperture sights. Might have to try it...

[gotcha]

I don't care either way on a target/hunting rifle - have both, but I completely disagree with you on the speed issue. Enfields have to be the fastest operating bolt guns I have ever worked

All I can say is get a reworked, Savage or Remington, or better yet get a Panda or a Bat, sit it beside a Enfield and see which one you can operate the fastest. You may be suprised. The pushing on the bolt to get the bolt to cosk and close, will slow down opperation more than you think. This is why competition guns do use cock on close technology ??? Would you consider a Savage Target action to be a competition Gun? There have been a thousand posts here regarding heavy bolt lift on Savage/Stevens. Aside from paying big bucks to T&T an action wouldn't the Savage benefit from cocking on closing rather than performing both unlock & cock upon bolt lift? Speaking for myself & evidently many others here, I'm more interested in ease than speed particlarly when trying to keep my cross hair on target :)

[82boy]

Would you consider a Savage Target action to be a competition Gun?
Yes I do, in the 600 and 1000 yard benchrest, and F class Savage guns do very well. In the point blank field I feel that a Savage is every bit as competitive as a Bat or a Panda, but theyr is harly anyone will to try this out.



Aside from paying big bucks to T&T an action ...

Wow, I didnt't realize that $125.00 is big money. I think that when you end up with an action that is compairible with a $1300 dollar action for the cost of the Savage action, and a T&T I would say that it is small potatos.



Aside from paying big bucks to T&T an action wouldn't the Savage benefit from cocking on closing rather than performing both unlock & cock upon bolt lift?
Why would it? Every enfield I have ever felt had a hard bolt closing, in the last section of the stroke, this is due to cocking the bolt. How is this smooter or faster?

All I can say is this; if cocking on closing is so much better why is Enfield , and only a few small other military rifles they only ones using it? The technology has been around at least 100 years. Name one highly accurate rifle that is made with a cock on closing system?

[nsaqam]

The British could fire 2 or 3 rounds from their C.O.C SMLE for every one round from the C.O.O. k98. Not only because of COC but because the SMLE held twice as many rounds as the k98 held meaning less time loading.

The Germans were convinced that the British trenches were filled with machine guns when in fact it was just Tommies doing their Mad Minute drill with their SMLE's.

COC also helps with primary extraction.

I see no advantage in COC for a non-military weapon.

[nsaqam]

Mad Minute drill.

Mad minute was a pre-World War I term used by British riflemen during training to describe scoring 15 hits onto a 12" round target at 300 yd within one minute using a bolt-action rifle (usually a Lee-Enfield or Lee-Metford rifle). It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 30+ shots, while the record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall was 38 hits.[1] It was rumored that a company of assaulting German soldiers reported that they had faced machine gun fire, while in fact it was a rifle squad of ten men firing at this rate.

[hunter2]

They knew how to shoot! Bet that was rough on the head and shoulders...

[ellobo]

The British .303 isnt a very potent cartridge compared to the German 8x57 or American .30-06 and in the heavy Lee rifle recoils is not excessive.

El Lobo

[cwop]

my dad was involved in ww2 not ww1 but i can tell you he was real tough had eyes like an eagle and could shoot. all my respect to those guys!!

bob

[sniper15545]

This is probably why a savage is about 50% the price of a kimber ;D

[ellobo]

While off topic, before WW1 the Brits designed a new rifle to replace the old SMLE. they called it the P14. American makers tooled up to make them. When it looked like we were going to war the P14 was chambered in .30-06 and called the P-17. Because we were tooled up and in production for mass manufacture the US issued the P-17. More P-17 were in the hands of American soldiers in WW1 than 03 Springfields. The P-17's were on the mauser pattern and very strong. England was geared up for SMLE production so they kept that as thier service rifle and never adopted the P-14. Many P-17 were converted to hunting rifles. My first .30-06 was one. Lost it in a house fire much to my sorrow.

El Lobo