A question or two for you all

[Quackaddict]

Gentleman, I need your opinions about what I am experiencing with my Savage 10 FCP HS in 308, the rig is pictured below.

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7743/mg3702.jpg

Im using burris signature rings on top of a EGW 1 piece rail, the base was blue loctited on, and the ring screws are torqued to 15inch lbs. The scope is a Bushnell 6500 4.5-30. The action screws on the gun are torqued to 65 inch lbs, and the barrel is fully floating.

Initial testing with Factory Hornaday Match 168 Amax ammo yielded MOA accuracy at 100 and 150 yds. With that I worked up a Handload as follows, Hornaday Brass, CCI large rifle primers, 43.3 grns IMR 4895, and 168grn Amax bullets loaded to 2.800.

I started load development messing with powder weights, I shot 5 shot groups at 100 yds and varied the powder weights from 40.0 to 43.3 (max load listed). 40.0, 40.5, 41.0 and 41.5grns got me about .75 inch for group sizes, 42.0, 42.5, and 43.0 yeilded right at an inch and 43.3 shot one tiny bughole of a group, an honest .25 inch group at 100 yds. I loaded 50 rnds of ammo of the 43.3 with the same specs as above and took it to the range today to test the load again. I ran a patch through the barrel twice to remove the residue, but did not treat it with anything.

The gun today acted like it wanted to shoot good, but only did it in spurts. I zeroed the scope at 100 yds and shot 4 -3 shot groups, they ranged from 1.5 MOA to .5 MOA, I then took it out to 200yds, found the drop, dialed in 2inches of rise in the scope, and fired a three shot group that measured .75 inch outside to outside. I was ecstatic to say the least! After that we played on the steel dingers at 200 and 250 for a while, and went down to check out the bullet impacts and groups, when we returned, I fired another two groups at 200yds, the POI moved 2 inches up and the groups went to 1.5-2 inch's.

I am unsure what exactly is going on with the rifle, the barrel was allowed to cool for about 15min while we checked the targets out, would going from a warm barrel to a cooler barrel affect POI so much? I always thought group size opened as you warmed a barrel up, but this one acts the opposite. Im not sure what to suspect, I loaded the ammo under the supervision of a good friend who has been reloading for some time, and we agreed the powder charges were consistent (individually weighed to .1 or a grn accuracy) and the ammo should be good.

Could the scope be suspect? Will a new barrel "wander" before its broke in? the rifle has about 110rnds down the tube. Im really liking the gun, but the inconsistency it and I are displaying are killing em right now.

Thoughts on it? Sorry for the long post, just trying to explain whats happening.

[dcloco]

Well...in a nutshell, it is (in no particular order):

You

Scope

Canting of the rifle (need a scope level).


How to eliminate the above:

Canting of the rifle - change to a black and white target that has multiple targets on it. Center the crosshairs on one and then line your vertical and horizontal crosshairs with the other target points on the target. ....or....spend $20 on an anti cant level.

Or...bag the rifle with multiple sandbags.


Scope - change the scope.

You - keep practicing. (which is easy to fix! :)

[Quackaddict]

I will fire next time from bags to see if that was affecting it, I was letting the bipod dig into the sand as I fired, it ended up about an inch into to the sand, the butt was supported by a rear bag. I kept track of cant while firing, and adjusted the gun as needed. I will look into a cant level.

I assumed that I would be a suspect of the problem, and by no means am I going to refute that. I am at least a capable shooter, I shot my friends 204 and punched a ragged hole at 100yds with it, I also shoot a couple thousand rounds a year of 17HMR out of an Anschutz 1517 MPR, though the 308 is a different animal than it is.

[Quackaddict]

Did some looking and reading, thinking I was more the issue than anything, I must have changed something in my shooting technique afterwards, I will see what I can do with it next time out.

[1Shot]

...Anticipating the recoil can come into play.. ;)...308's are nothing like 204's...

[Quackaddict]

This very well could have been the issue, the accutrigger has just enough creep in it that I can tell when its gonna send it. I am gonna work on my technique today dry firing. Hopefully I can correct and get through it.

[Eric in NC]

This very well could have been the issue, the accutrigger has just enough creep in it that I can tell when its gonna send it. I am gonna work on my technique today dry firing. Hopefully I can correct and get through it.


One thing that really works for finding out if you are flinching/twitching is to make a dummy round (sized case and bullet - no primer or powder) and have a buddy load your gun for you. Put the dummy in at random with the live rounds. When the dummy shows up you will know if you have been anticipating the recoil!

People do this more with handguns but it works great with a rifle too.

[jlcpls]

I videotaped my son shooting.

If you're anticipating, the camera don't lie.

But it adds 10 lbs.

[Quackaddict]

Now that the dummy round is mentioned, I actually have one we used to get the OAL correct, I will have Jeff load the clip for me next time out and see if thats doing it.

What are people thoughts on the affect of grip on a rifle? Ie if I was basically letting the rifle free recoil into my shoulder with a light grip prone then going to a more "Sturdy" grip on the rifle, will that affect POI?

[1Shot]

What are people thoughts on the affect of grip on a rifle? Ie if I was basically letting the rifle free recoil into my shoulder with a light grip prone then going to a more "Sturdy" grip on the rifle, will that affect POI?


...Yup...I try & hold them with a Med. grip myself...Kinda like a hand shake...Firm but not to the point of trying to crunch the guys knuckles..lol...

[Dennis]

I have a FCP McMillian 308, use a rest or definetly hold the stock when shooting. I tested my gun doing this and shooting off a rest and holding the stock tightened my groups! Get the accu-trigger to 12oz's! You will love it and it can be done! The more you shoot the gun, the more accurate it will get! One of my 308's likes 168 BTHP's and the FCP loves SMK 175gr BTHP's.

Barrel cleaning; very important! At one time I thought I was cleaning my barrel until I learned how! Using a foam or Butch's Bore Shine is the best! Make sure all the copper is out, you might be surprised especially on a new gun how much time and effort it takes to get one cleaned! I learned my lesson on my 243. Groups keep getting larger and larger. One person told me to clean the barrel thourghly! He also instructed my how he cleaned his barrels. I followed his advice, the next time I shot the gun, my groups were instantly less than .300 @ 100yds. I was so shocked, I took all my guns out and cleaned them the same way. On the ones I cleaned and put up, I was shocked to see how much more copper (blue on pads) was coming out!

I also agree with all the other points above. PS: Get a NightForce, can't go wrong especially with a trigger job!

[Quackaddict]

It depends on how far I want to get into distance shooting, I would love to own a nightforce, but there are so many other things I would like to toy with that its way down on the list. The trigger will be replaced, its good but not great. For now I will work on having a consistent hold and shooting technique, when the POI changed, I got flustered and didnt think about what I was doing wrong.

I treat the barrel for copper, and push patches through it until it runs clean.

So far the gun is living up to its expectations, I think I am holding it back right now, I will be messing with OAL when I get things straightened out with me next, and would like to test 178 Amax round and the 110 Vmax offerings.

[Dennis]

Stick with it, your on the correct track!

Good Luck,

[Quackaddict]

An update for all of you who chimed in, todays range session went much better. I really worked with getting a good solid shooting sequence, and doing the same things all the time, Im not an expert, but it had marked improvements on shooting. The gun shot .5 MOA at 100 and 200 when I did my part, I could tell when I did things wrong and the shots backed it up. I managed to lighten the trigger some and that helped a lot. My next upgrade will be a SSS trigger though. I will also probably have a brake installed, not being able to spot rounds sucks when firing at live critters.

Would it be worth messing with OAL with my current load? We did a measurment with the a bullet and found the lands at 2.830. I am loading the 168 Amax to 2.800, would I have to do a complete load development ( ie powder weights in addition to length) if I messed with the OAL? IF im not mistaken running the bullet closer to the lands will increase pressure in the chamber?

[dcloco]

What kind of runout on a loaded round are you getting?

I would start there first....then work up the load ladder to find the nodes of accuracy...and then start varying overall length.

[Quackaddict]

Im not familiar with runout, and what it means...

[hershey]

it can be a host of stupid things, one i discovered recently was i have had 2 distince groupings in a 10 shot string about an inch apart. i found myself leaving my hand on the wheel of the front rest some of the time, time will tell if i really solved anything.

i have a rifle doing that right now, you can watch the impacts move left to right as you work through a 10 shot string. i am still adding powder to the problem, i got flat primers but no other issue's, it is a wildcat, so i kinda just got to read the signs, can't really use published data. my first powder was to fast, i was at 2/3 case capacity and hurting the brass.

[RoscoeT]

Im not familiar with runout, and what it means...


I found this to be good for explaining it to me.
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-reloading-bullet-run-out.html

[Quackaddict]

Interesting, so what causes runout then? Is it the dies you use to seat the bullets? The brass?

[Eric in NC]

Can be the dies, the press (axis for shell holder not in line with axis for dies), a badly off center chamber (brass gets offset to one side and can't be pushed back in line) or a number of other things.

Number one culprit is usually the seating die (pushed bullet in at an angle).

The article provided has a good description on how to determine where it is comming from (if you have it) and various causes.