ALMOST A GO GAUGE

[joeb33050]

Had a HS problem w/ a barrel swap recently. Used a go-gauge & found fired cases matched the go-gauge H/S. But, W/ die set to S/H + 1/4 turn, F/L sized cases were .0015" longer & difficult to chamber. Chkd my shell holder & found it measured .246".... I could shorten the S/H or cut about .003" off bottom of die to get the amount of sizing flexibilty I needed. I decided to order three more S/H's from different Mfg's. here's what I got: S/H (A) .223", (B) .250" (C) .261" That's .038" difference in S/H's. ( industry standard is .250") If I didn't have a comparator & simply set my F/L die to the (A) S/H would the case have gone KABOOM from the massively short H/S? Maybe---maybe not. Without a doubt results could be head separation after a few firings or cratered primers or both, even if powder chgs had been worked up slowly. I really don't think setting HD SP w/ a F/L sized case is the best idea. If the above happened to me, it could happen to anyone. Rare circumstance? YEP! Could this happen to a novice BBL swapper w/ no go-gauge or comparator?.......................................


There's something wrong here. The notion that shell holder makers allow the important dimension to vary .038" is just not believable. GOTCHA, you're measuring the wrong dimension. The dimension that matters on a shell holder is from the top of the shell holder to the surface where the bottom of the case rests. The top of the shell holder is where the die stops, and the point where shoulder-headspace is measured from. I just measured 13 misc. shell holders and got .125" for each, as near as I can tell with the depth measurement part of a dial caliper. Thus, shoulder-headspace dies are made so that the headspace dimension OF THE DIE is .125" less than the nominal headspace dimension. Imagine a headspace dimension of 2.000". The die is made at 1.875". This plus the shell holder .125" = 2.000".
I set the die so that it is a solid stop on the top of the shell holder-no over-center snap thing is going on. The shell holder goes up and hits a dead stop.
Back to the lead-filled case as headspace gauge. The lead will and does keep the case from springing or feeling mushy. And, from changing headspace dimension. That's my point. If HS gauges are what you want to use, go right ahead. BUT, if you're a fired-f.l.sized-case HS setter maybe you'll like to try a lead filled case.
joe b.

[Apache]

How many of you guys have done it "wrong" and had a "kaboom" or even a case seperation?



I do it "wrong" all the time and have never had a case separation or any other problems. :P

But I've done this now for a while and no longer in the learning stages..... Besides...most of the cartridges I shoot don't have any gauges for headspacing. I would dare say that I probably have a couple of "one of a kind" chambers.

Stay safe and only tackle what you can handle.

[gotcha]

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale

[stangfish]

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale


Your drinking Jack while reloading. Thats Crazy! Makers Mark would be a much better choice.

[GaCop]

I'll have to agree w/ the slowpokeslim way of thinking......... I've been guilty of offering advice to new bbl swappers who probably are not aware of all the ramifications of using F/L sized cases as HD SP gauges. :-[ Lets face it, there are too many "ifs" in this method for the novice. Particularly, the novices that don't have comparators or understand that all sizing dies are not created equal nor are the shell holders........ With only one exception, I've always used a go-gauge. If we don't know the knowledge level of a poster we can be doing a potentially dangerous dis-service. JMHO, Dale


+1!

[GaCop]

If a builder is barreling to a caliber he's never had before, surely that job is limited to a GO gauge only as he doesn't have a fired/FL sized case to begin with?

[joeb33050]

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale

Dale;
"My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing?" I FL size the cases. Even shooting LV cast bullet loads, I find that neck-sized brass gets tight = resistance to bolt closing, and must be FL sized now and then.

"And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case?" My first answer is that I believe that the chance of getting an out-of-spec RCBS or other big name sizing die is right around zero. My second answer is that when we use a fired FL sized case to set HS, we're doing so for THAT die and THAT barrel/chamber, other dies and chambers may not "go with" the original fired case.

I think this. A case fired in any gun is bigger than a new case, and has blown out ot just under that gun's chamber size. The fired case cannot be shorter after firing, in the HS dimension, unless the case had been forced into a short chamber. So the fired case HS dimension is at least minimum. When the case is FL sized, there should and must and will be resistance in the press means that the press/die is squeezing something down. Then the fired FL sized case HS dimension is at least minimum HS dimension. Set the barrel HS with this case and HS is at least minimum HS dimension.
This is all true, I think, as long as the die and chamber are within spec AND the case doesn't get squozen down during setting HS and the mechanic understands what he's doing and is careful and checks for bolt closing resistance when there's a piece or 2 of scotch tape on the case head.

I think.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

If a builder is barreling to a caliber he's never had before, surely that job is limited to a GO gauge only as he doesn't have a fired/FL sized case to begin with?


Not so. The builder needs a fired case. Where it comes from, within reason, doesn't matter. I use fired cases that someone else or some other gun fired. In the case where the builder can't get some fired cases, then a HS gauge is the only solution I can see.

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.

On the epoxy-filled case = HS gauge topic. I fill a fired case with lead or solder. THEN I FL size the case. Effort is required. I believe that the lead filled case is swaged down when FL resizing. I DON'T know but suspect that the EPOXY filled case won't swage down.

I think.
joe b.

[barrel-nut]

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.



Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.

[joeb33050]

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.



Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.


" If so, please restate." Sure. Filling a fired case with lead/alloy, then FL sizing the case with the lead/alloy in it, makes a pseudo-HS gauge that doesn't have the "squishy" feel of an empty case.

Be safe.
joe b.

[barrel-nut]

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.



Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.


" If so, please restate." Sure. Filling a fired case with lead/alloy, then FL sizing the case with the lead/alloy in it, makes a pseudo-HS gauge that doesn't have the "squishy" feel of an empty case.

Be safe.
joe b.


Good point. If it works for you, then by all means, do it. Just don't hate on those of us who prefer to do it differently.

By the way, I really like the use of the word "squozen". Honestly, that's cool. :) :)

[CJ in WY]

Along these lines how many of us check to make sure the case or go gauge protrudes @ least 1.25 out of the barrel before we install the barrel??

[GaCop]

Along these lines how many of us check to make sure the case or go gauge protrudes @ least 1.25 out of the barrel before we install the barrel??


Did you mean .125" protrusion?