Savage 14 AC 7-08 major accuracy issues...help

[sav101]

I have a model 14 American Classic in 7mm-08 that I cannot get a good group with. I bought it new last March. It has Talley one piece lightweight base/rings and the scope is a Bushnell Dusk/Dawn...and before anyone says- it's the cheap scope or well, there's your problem, I have the same scope on a Remington 7600 and it is beyond accurate.

I want to use factory ammo, I cannot reload....I have used Remington Core-lokt 140 with the best results(1-1/2"-2" at 50 yards), Winchester Power Point 140 (ballistically similar to Federal Vital Shok/Nosler Ballistic Tips) 3" groups at best, and Hornady GMX 139...groups in the 5" neighborhood consistently.

These results are under ideal conditions....3 shot groups, barrels cleaned, time to cool, solid bench rest. I am at a loss here so suggest my next course of action. What ammo do you use in 7-08 savages?

[ellobo]

Just because you have another scope of the same model and make doesnt mean the one in question isnt broke. Swap them out and see what happens. If the other scope works on this same rifle then you know the scope is the problem. 5' groups are never the fault of the rifle. Even factory ammo should give you 1.5 inch groups out of that rifle. Its a simple way to find out if it is inded the scope thats the problem. The reason you hear that the scope is probably the problem is because about 100% of the time it is.

El Lobo

[stangfish]

So lets start with the basics. Are all of you screws tight? Is the action torqued to 25-30 in/lbs? Have you tried a diferent scope? I will add that the 7600 is an auto loader that has much less recoil than the bolt gun. Is it possible that your second scope is not as good as your first(you could test that by swapping them around)? Is the barrel floated?

after you have checked that call savage and ask them what to do.

[barrel-nut]

Stangfish and ellobo have very good suggestions, and I would agree with them 100% except in this specific case. Sav101, I think you are correct, it's probably not your scope, mounts, etc. Check your barrel twist rate with a cleaning rod fitted with a tight patch. Chances are you have a 1-11" twist barrel on your 7-08, and if that is the case, you will probably never get it to group well with 140's or heavier. Many of us have fought the same battle with poor results. Why Savage chose to use 1-11" instead of the industry standard 1-9.25" for 7mm's is beyond comprehension.
You might try some 120 gr. loads, they should do better. But unless you handload, these will be hard to find.
The "good" news, is that it is relatively easy to rebarrel it with a barrel of the correct twist, or even to change calibers, to anything in the .308 family.
Do not waste another dollar on various 140gr ammunition until you determine which twist you are dealing with. I believe that I have read on here that Savage has produced some models with the faster twist also; but it sure sounds like you got stuck with a slow twist barrel. Ask me how I know; I tried all the same things you are doing now, and nothing worked- various scopes, mounts, every 140 grain factory load I could get my hands on. Best I could get was 2-3" at 100 yds., usually worse. I eventually rebarreled it with a 1-9.25" twist 7-08, and groups immediately dropped below an inch with 140's.
Not trying to discourage you, and I sincerely hope this twist issue is not the problem, but I bet it is. Savage makes a good rifle, and in the case of your model 14, a good looking rifle, and Savage rifles are accurate almost as a rule. Why they continue to produce 7-08's that are not optimized for 90%+ of the factory ammo out there (140 gr) just makes no sense.

[GaCop]

Too true! The only bullets I can use in my 1 in 11 twist are the 100, 110 and 120 grain. I even tried some 130s and they wouldn't group. Luckily, the 120 gr Nosler BTs shoot very well giving me sub MOA at 100 yards.

[barrel-nut]

GaCop,
I'm pretty sure you handload, but I'll ask anyway on behalf of the OP- Do you know of any 120 gr factory loads for the 7-08? The only one I found, and I just found it only minutes ago, is this:
Hornady® Custom Lite Rifle Ammunition
120 gr SST
On sale on Cabelas website now for $21.99.
This is the only 120gr of the 13 loads Cabelas lists for the 7-08. The rest are 140 and up.
Sav101, you may want to give these a try. I really think this would help.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Rifle-Ammunition/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104532480/Hornady-Custom-Lite-Rifle-Ammunition/1229641.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshoo ting-ammunition-rifle-ammunition%2F_%2FN-1100190%2B4294751911%2FNe-4294751911%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104532480%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104792 580%253Bcat104691780%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_st ype%3DGNU&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104792580%3Bcat104691780%3Bcat10453 2480

[thirty06]

Midway lists 4 120gr. factory loads.

[deadeye]

I know it defies the odds and these are trued, ground lug, SSS triggers, etc, etc, BUT I have just finished my 6th (yes 6!) build using the Stevens 1 in 11 barrel and all 6 of them shoot sub MOA (a couple are closer to 1/2 inch) 3 shot groups at 100 yards using this load:

140 gr Nosler BT over 40.0 gr Varget with Winchester primers at 2.850 COAL

A friend is using the Barnes 140 gr with equal accuracy in his ( yes - 1 in 11 Stevens barrel) and as you can see he is pretty happy (before you question the stainless looking barrel on the rig - it is finished in GunKote):

http://www.darkeaglecustom.com/myalbum_files/timdeer.jpg

WITH THAT SAID - I still recommend a 1 in 9 twist if a guy is buying a new barrel to put on.

Disclaimer - Your mileage may vary.............

[barrel-nut]

Great, thanks thirty06! I'd sure hate to see the OP keep struggling simply for lack of appropriate ammo choices.

[barrel-nut]

That's good info, deadeye. I'm honestly glad you were able to make yours work, and others on the forum have had good results too.
However, there have been many for whom nothing seemed to work, judging by how frequently this topic pops up. I know myself and GaCop had major problems at about the same time. Back then, I didn't handload, so I know what the OP is up against, as he has stated that he is limited to factory loads. Just trying to point him in the right direction, and hopefully keep him from having to break down (and rebarrel) that nice Model 14.

[stangfish]

It may very well be the twist. I too have replaced my 1:11.? for a 1:9 twist, but my grandnephew's 1:11 twist shoots just fine with 40gr's of R-15 behind a 140 SGK.

I'm not certain that this is 100% reliable but I took it off of savages web page.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/14AMERICANCLASSIC

14/114 American Classic Caliber: 7MM-08 REM Handed: Right Rate of Twist: 9.5 Weight: 7 lbs Overall Length: 42" Barrel Length: 22" Ammo Capacity: 4


OH! and one other thing. I have seen barrels with the minor diameter of the bore .005 oversize from the factory. Takes a starret small hole gauge to find it.http://images.starrett.com/is/image/Starrett/S829EZe53074cUSp1?wid=240&hei=240&qlt=80,1&fmt=png-alpha&maskUse=norm
Good Luck

[sav101]

My gun is not a 1 in 11 twist barrel, it has a 1 in 9-1/2 twist rate. I will begin with the scope and see what happens.

Hornady GMX bullets are going through the target and leaving an oval hole instead of a circle, what does this mean?

[thirty06]

Check your barrel crown real good.

[keeki]

check the front base screw and make sure its not too long

[barrel-nut]

It means they are not fully stabilized; it's called key holing.

[keeki]

it is possible that Savage put the wrong twist barrel on it. Did you actually measure the twist rate or did you just go by what it is supposed to be?

[barrel-nut]

it is possible that Savage put the wrong twist barrel on it. Did you actually measure the twist rate or did you just go by what it is supposed to be?


+1

Not to beat a dead horse, but here's what I'm hearing so far from the OP:

Remington core-lokt 140's doing the best at 1-2" at 50 yds.
- the core-lokt is a relatively short, flat based bullet that is therefore easier to stabilize; even if the twist rate is marginal, it does OK.

Hornady 139 GMX's doing the worst, 5" groups, and key holing.
- the GMX is a relatively long bullet for its weight due to its being constructed of lighter metal (lead free). Remember that longer bullets are harder to stabilize than shorter ones. If the twist is marginal, these would be more likely to give problems (i.e. 5" groups, keyholes).

IMHO, you have a bullet stabilization issue. It may be caused by inadequate twist in the barrel, or other manufacturing problems, as stangfish pointed out above. A loose or broken scope is not going to cause a bullet to keyhole at 50 yds.

I'll shut up now. ;)

[sav101]

The SKU # on the box says 17770, the web site page for the gun says 1- 9-1/2 twist rate.

How could or why would a bullet not stabilize in 2 full turns before leaving the barrel? Too much twist for the velocity? Hornady GMX=2910 fps/muzzle velocity.

Also in my Savage paperwork the ammo listed for the targeting evaluation is Winchester 140 Gr Ballistic Silvertip and the web site says Federal 140 Gr Nosler Ballistic Tip- so which is it?

Disassembly begins today. Will follow up.

[sav101]

The forward screw for the front sight base is over the barrel, correct? If the screw for the base were too long and running into it would that create inconsistent accuracy or not?

[keeki]

yes, because the scope base will be moving