sticky bolt and pressure signs on savage model 14 270wsm

[jladams]

The marks you see on the brass are from the factory. Just stay away from the Win. ammo and all will be well!


I do not see those marks before the rounds are fired. All I can see is a uniform light crimp on the case mouth.

Jack

[jladams]

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mfgx8WkxiPP9X8GrswDTLA?feat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?

And the following is how the bolt face looks now. Not the ring around the bolt face where it looks like the cases are spinning against at when trying to extract them. Does this mean anything?

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/BiZLXKwZ1wrWppR_-uk0Gg?feat=directlink

Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

Jack

[MZ5]

...contrary to your experience, all the factory win loads for at least 3 different caliber I have on hand have the brass colored (non-plated) primers.

To be clear, I meant only nickel-plated ammo. Nevertheless, they must've changed their primer cups for the nickel-plated cases. I haven't bought nickel-plated factory ammo nor new Win primers in over 18 months.



http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mfgx8WkxiPP9X8GrswDTLA?feat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I quite follow. The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? Or this is where it sticks when you're opening it? The bolt looks unlocked to me in that photo, and it looks like the bolt face is just about at the receiver opening. What am I not understanding?


Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

Something's a bit different between the chambers on your rifles. Probably just a little larger chamber/body size in your 270's chamber vs. the 300, or possibly a little greater headspace. That would let the 270 brass expand a bit more upon firing, and prevent it chambering in the 300 thereafter. It could be other things, I suppose, but I'm thinking that's about the most likely thing.

As far as the crimp marks you're seeing. I cannot immediately explain to you why they look different after firing vs. before. Nevertheless, it is what it is. Those marks are relics of the factory loading operations. If that was rifling, then the crimped-in portions would be relatively narrow, and the un-crimped-in portions would be relatively wide. This is because the lands are narrower than the grooves in the rifling. Then there's that thing about how you wouldn't be able to chamber the rounds at all because you'd be pushing the entire exposed bullet bearing length through that rifling.

I still hold the opinion that it is not completely clear whether it's the gun or the ammo that's causing the problem here, but I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again many times. :)

[jladams]

...contrary to your experience, all the factory win loads for at least 3 different caliber I have on hand have the brass colored (non-plated) primers.

To be clear, I meant only nickel-plated ammo. Nevertheless, they must've changed their primer cups for the nickel-plated cases. I haven't bought nickel-plated factory ammo nor new Win primers in over 18 months.
I should have been more clear myself. I am talking about nickel plated cases in ballistic silvertip loadings in .223 , 270 wsm and 300 wsm.


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mfgx8WkxiPP9X8GrswDTLA?feat=directlink

This shows where the bolt is hitting when I try to close it. It happens when there is slight upward pressure on the bolt handle. Is this normal?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I quite follow. The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? yes, it sticks when closing at that point, It is hitting what I guess is the receiver but if I push down on the handle it will go in without more than a click there. Or if I push forward with force it will hit then rotate slightly and go in.That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? yes, when chambering or closing on an empty chamber.Or this is where it sticks when you're opening it? The bolt looks unlocked to me in that photo, and it looks like the bolt face is just about at the receiver opening. What am I not understanding?


Another bit of info. The unfired rounds (both win and fed) in 270wsm chamber easily in my 300wsm. The fired 270 wsm cases will not chamber at all in the 300wsm. Why would this be?

Something's a bit different between the chambers on your rifles. Probably just a little larger chamber/body size in your 270's chamber vs. the 300, or possibly a little greater headspace. That would let the 270 brass expand a bit more upon firing, and prevent it chambering in the 300 thereafter. It could be other things, I suppose, but I'm thinking that's about the most likely thing.

As far as the crimp marks you're seeing. I cannot immediately explain to you why they look different after firing vs. before. Nevertheless, it is what it is. Those marks are relics of the factory loading operations. If that was rifling, then the crimped-in portions would be relatively narrow, and the un-crimped-in portions would be relatively wide. This is because the lands are narrower than the grooves in the rifling. Then there's that thing about how you wouldn't be able to chamber the rounds at all because you'd be pushing the entire exposed bullet bearing length through that rifling.

I still hold the opinion that it is not completely clear whether it's the gun or the ammo that's causing the problem here, but I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again many times. :)


I am thinking at this point that it is likely that the rifle has a little too much head space and that maybe just screwing the barrel in a little more against a "set-to" gage or about halfway between a go and no-go gage, will clear it up. I suppose it is possible that the chamber is cut a little wrong, but I think excessive head space is more likely. I am absolutely positive that I could be wrong.

[ShaneG.]

Is this a problem with Win. ammo? My buddy picked up a NEF 22-250 and came with a box of Win cxp1 40 or 45 grain hp's. As he was shooting I was picking up the brass and noticed extremely flat primers. I reloaded some of the brass and on the 2nd light load it blew the case head off.

You could see on some of the cases right about where they others seperated a slight pucker or bulge,I think the brass was destroyed by very hot loading from the factory.

[MZ5]

The bolt sticks in this place when you're trying to close it? yes, it sticks when closing at that point, It is hitting what I guess is the receiver but if I push down on the handle it will go in without more than a click there. Or if I push forward with force it will hit then rotate slightly and go in. That is, when you're trying to chamber a round? yes, when chambering or closing on an empty chamber.

This is not proper function. You should be able to just lackadaisically or frankly even sloppily close the bolt without a hitch at that point. I can only make one of my rifles (Savages, I mean) give me a tick and slight interference there if I'm actively lifting on the bolt handle at that point.

I'd send the gun to Savage complaining about both the hard bolt lift with factory ammo AND the improper function/closing of the bolt. I have the idea that you're already planning to send it to them, so if it were me I'd add that improper bolt function to the list for them to fix.

Again in the interest of clarity, I wasn't suggesting that one of the rifles' chambers is cut incorrectly per se. Rather, it is probably simply looser than the other. It may well still be within spec, though. It could be outside of spec or incorrect, but I expect it's more likely just on the large side of the tolerance. OTOH, if the bolt isn't functioning correctly, and/or the receiver isn't cut properly (I don't recall just now whether the rifle with the hang-up is also the one with the sticky bolt lift or not), then who knows what all else may be incorrectly done?

[jladams]

A OTOH, if the bolt isn't functioning correctly, and/or the receiver isn't cut properly (I don't recall just now whether the rifle with the hang-up is also the one with the sticky bolt lift or not), then who knows what all else may be incorrectly done?
[/quote]

Same rifle. I did not think this was right. It is the only rifle I own that does this, and yes, I am sending it back. Had it boxed up but took it out for pics. I think their may even be a problem with the bolt. If you noticed the primers on the fired rounds in the pics, the firing pin did not hit the center of the primer. I don't know how far off center is acceptable, but it is further from center than any of my other rifles. (Tikka, Weatherby Mark V, Rem 700, etc,etc.)

Below is a copy of the letter I am sending to Savage with the rifle.

I purchased the above referenced firearm from .......... on January 4, 2009. I did not attempt to fire the rifle until just recently when I unboxed it, mounted a Kahles Helia CL 3-10 X50mm scope in a 1 piece DNZ Game Reaper base, and proceeded to break in the barrel following the procedure recommended on your web site in preparation for deer season in southern Georgia.
At first, during the “shoot once, clean, repeat” phase I used Winchester 270 WSM 150 grain Power-Point ammunition (x270wsm). I noticed that at times bolt lift was a little difficult and sometimes extremely difficult. I switched to Winchester 130 grain Ballistic Silvertip (SBST2705) ammunition and experienced the same difficult to lift bolt. However, I was able to zero the rifle with the 130 grain ammunition and even fired a 1.25 inch 3 shot group at 130 yards which I though to be acceptable for factory ammunition. However the stiff bolt was a concern. This problem seems to be getting worse as time goes by.
Later, during a hunt I fired a shot at a predator that was only 35 yards away. I missed high and attempted a follow-up shot, however, it took every ounce of effort to open the bolt and eject the spent case. I did manage to cycle the bolt and load another round which I then fired. That round was also very difficult the extract.
At no time has it been difficult to chamber an unfired round, however, the fired Winchester cases do not chamber easily and I had to tap one of them out with a cleaning rod.
I tried using Federal 130grn power-shok ammunition and I am able to chamber the round, fire it, then eject to case much easier than with the Winchester ammunition, with some resistance on the bolt, but not much more than I would expect. I have not attempted to group any shots with the federal ammunition. Also, the fired federal cases re-chamber with no difficulty, except slight resistance on the bolt.
One thing I would also like to mention is that while I was firing the 150 grain Winchester round, I noticed that one of the rounds had a jacket separation about 15 yards out from the muzzle; it still hit the target, but at impact it was slightly key-holed and deformed.
I have measured the unfired and fired cases as best I can with calipers and am unable to discern anything in any meaningful way; however, the COAL for the Winchester 130 grain round is 0.113” longer than the federal 130 grain round I used. I am not sure if the COAL is an issue as the COAL of the Winchester is 2.756” and the COAL of the Federal 130 grain round is 2.643”
Also, on the Winchester cases from the 130 grain round, there are flattened primers and ejector marks. On the federal case, the primers are slightly flattened but there are no other discernible pressure signs. Also, the firing pin is not striking any of the primers dead center, but slightly off center. Also, the bolt hangs up on the receiver when closing, even on an empty chamber, if there is any upward pressure, however slight, on the bolt handle. You will be able to see what I am talking about better than I can explain it.
I have only used new, factory loaded ammunition from Winchester and Federal at this time. I became more concerned about this problem when I read that you use Winchester 130grn ballistic silvertip ammunition for test firing in the 270 WSM.
I have been afraid to use this firearm since my experience with the predator previously mentioned and have resorted to using 300 WSM from a different manufacturer. I am looking forward to getting this Savage in working order so I can use it on a hunt, if not this season, at least the next. I am also looking forward to some range time with it.
Please inspect this firearm fully and let me know what the issue is. I am anxious to get this resolved, and I am quite disappointed that I will not be able to take a deer this season with my new Savage model 14.
You may contact me at:............................


Jack

[jladams]

UPDATE::

Savage is returning my rifle today. They said they replaced the bolt body and polished the chamber but did not offer further explanation.

Apparently there was something wrong with the bolt.

Jack

[jladams]

Fired it once, with the same Win ammo I had tried before. No more sticky bolt, no stuck cases.

There is a new thing though. The primer now has 2 really shiny marks on the edge, opposite sides and 1 mark is longer than the other. I could not see anyway on the bolt face that could cause this. Curious...

Jac

[bigngreen]

Sounds like it's going to work out but I thought I could add something. I'm shooting a Savage model 12 in the same chambering, it looks like mine is head space to same measurements. I have had the exact same problem you were having and I concluded that there are two things that contribute to the problem one being Win brass is to small and head spacing is a little long. I have only hand loaded for this rifle and have used Win, Rem and Norma brass. The Rem is the thickest and does not require fire forming, the Win needs to be fire formed if using hot loads or you will get the stuck cases. What happens with the Win is when you fire it first the primer comes back and then the brass comes back under high pressure with speed because the small case has no traction yet on the side wall of the chamber mashing everything back into place giving you the extreme pressure signs and hard bolt. I haven't changed my head spacing yet but have the gauge so I intend to get the head spacing down so the brass doesn't move as much from firing.
I saw you had some key holing with some 150's, you may not have a fast enough twist to stabilize some 150's, the 140gr bullets are really hard to beat with the 1-11 twist.