Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR

[barrel-nut]

My Range Master 750 will creep over time, sometimes as much as 1.5 grains over several hours. I definitely notice it drifting off .1-.2 grains during the course of weighing out 50 powder charges.
Before using it i first plug it in and let it warm up. Then i go though the calibration cycle using the supplied weights. I know that the pan that I weigh my charges in weighs 114.5 grains; before starting I put the pan on the scale and press "zero". This is a "tare" weight function- it basically just compensates for the weight of the pan. It should now read 0.0 with the empty pan sitting on it. Proceed to weigh charges. Periodically place the empty pan on the scale; it should still read zero. If it doesn't, press the Zero button to re-zero. Alternatively, you can just watch the scale after you remove the pan... In my case it should read "-114.5". If it reads "-114.6 or -114.7", then it's time to re- zero.
In any case, the best policy is to never completely trust any electronic scale, especially the "Made in China" models such as ours. Use a good balance beam type scale to check your charges, say every fifth or tenth one, to verify your electronic scale. I have to admit to getting lazy on this lately, but I normally do it and it is a good idea especially for near-max loads.
Sorry if I hijacked this post, but this may have some relevance to the OP's problems.

[Dennis]

Makes since!

[Quinny]

Sorry if I hijacked this post, but this may have some relevance to the OP's problems.


I don't think that the powder charges should be an issue - I weigheach and every charge using an RCBS 505 balance beam scale, so they should be pretty consistent.

I also batch my brass and projectiles by weight, so I can ensure that I have the 5 rounds which are making up the group are as close to exactly the same as I can get them.

[barrel-nut]

Good, powder charge consistency is not an issue for you. This is reenforced by the very consistent chrono numbers in your previous post. I posted the above mainly because Dennis asked for clarification.
Have you tried the 175 sierras yet? I think you may get better results with these, especially at longer ranges. Consider getting a concentricity gauge to sort your loaded rounds for runout. I like the Sinclair concentricity gauge, it runs around 90-100$ depending if it's on sale. This was a revelation for me; it took my handloading to a higher level. Even with quality dies, you still get some "duds" that may have as much as .005" runout; for best results I like to have mine at .001 or less. With practice on a gauge such as this, you can actually see the tip of the bullet wobble as you spin it if it is off as little as .005-.010. Of course the dial indicator will tell you exactly how much it's off, but my point is if I can see it wobble with the naked eye, it can't possibly give optimal results. I generally separate these by placing them in the rear row of the 50 round box, and use them as foulers. The good ones go in the front of the box, and the really perfect ones ( rare) get marked with a sharpie. All this won't solve all your grouping problems but it won't hurt either. The more consistency you can get in your loaded rounds, the better.
The Sinclair gauge is kind of a "one trick pony", but it does that trick well. There are other very good ones, such as the NECO gauge and rcbs has one too, and there are others. The NECO can check all sorts of things, and is recommended by David Tubb in his DVD on precision reloading. This DVD is also worth the money.

[Nandy]

Ok, so what is a "bad shot" here that you are talking about? do you have a picture, how do your groups measure with and without said bad shot?



As far as velocity goes, I have only shot 3 shots from my current load over a chrony, they registered at 2841, 2845 & 2849fps.

You need more than an example of 3 loads to call all your loads accurate as far as the powder charge/speed. I have check and double check loads in a group of 12, use the same weight bullet (all 150.1 gr instead of 150.2) and have come with different speeds and in occasion a "bad shot" that turns what could be a .3 group into a .5 group.

IM not trying to be argumentative here, just stressing the need to use a chrono as a tool to single out one possibility. In a group of 12 I often get doubles or triplets. But sometimes I do get a bad shot and when I compare the video to the speed guess whuat? Bad shot=bad speed... If I had not been using the chrono I would go crazy thinking that the scope is coming loose, the stock is coming loose, or God know what else might be loose or is it just me that flinch that shot... If your speed is constant and you have a problem somewhere else. Have someone else shoot the rifle, see if they experience the same 2 bad shot out of 5. If not take the shots at a different rate of what your are doing now. Ex if you shot them all with no wait then wait a until the gun cools down or viceversa.

Is my opinion that while you find your fluke you need to use your chrono. Actually, I dont see much reason not to use one. It just take 3 to 4 min to set it up and it gives you an assurance that your loads are constant and if there is a bad shot you need to look somewhere else.

Good luck.

[barrel-nut]

Ex if you shot them all with no wait then wait a until the gun cools down or viceversa.


- This would be my next suggestion. Barrel heat can easily cause groups to open up, especially in a factory barrel. The factories don't go to the expense of stress relieving their barrels; most aftermarket barrel makers do. The button rifling process introduces significant stress into the steel, and as the barrel heats up from shooting, this stress can cause the point of impact to shift slightly. To help identify if this is your problem, try shooting a group your normal way, then let it cool thoroughly. Then shoot another group using the same ammo, except this time let the barrel cool completely between shots. If your range has power, bring an electric fan with you to help speed this up. If barrel stress is a factor, this will reveal it. I have two factory sporter rifles, a Weatherby 7-mag and a Browning .243, that refuse to group well warm. If I do as I explained above, both shoot about an inch.
Realize too that 1/2" or slightly under, as you stated, for five shots, is pretty darn good for any factory barrel. It's possible that there's not much more to be gained here without going the custom barrel route.

[memilanuk]

What kind of loads were you using with the 155s?

I've been using 155s for about 4 years now, with *no* issues.

This is from load testing earlier this year (February) on a nice clear, crisp morning with no mirage, and basically zero wind (great day for load testing!):

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/milanuk/gun_stuff/load_testing/1117112220.jpg

(sorry for the fuzzy pic, I went downstairs and snapped a cell-phone pic of the target)

Like I said, the barrel on the 12 F/TR tend to shoot 155s very, very well in my experience (I'm on barrel #5).

[Quinny]

I am loading up the 175s tonight and will give them a go tomorrow. I don't seem to be able to post attachments, but the 155gn projectiles, nearly every group I would get 3 shots in one hole - about 0.3", and 2 flyers which were further away and blew the group out to around 1". Not horrible accuracy, but not great. The 168gn Sierras seem much better.

I find it difficult to think that if it was a problem with my technique, brass or something coming loose etc, then why do the 168gn Sierras shoot so much better than 3 different 155gn projectiles?

I am just about due for a new batch of brass, I will see how that goes as well. I will also try to get hold of a chrony and put a few more shots over it to work out the velocity consistency.

As I said before, I am fairly happy with how the 168 Sierras shoot (though I will still try the 175s), I am not trying to work out what went wrong with the 155s, just seeing if there are any tricks/tips people have used on their F/TR to improve accuracy.

[Dennis]

@ barrel-nut

I use the RCBS ChargeMaster Combo-Scale and Dispenser,


before starting I put the pan on the scale and press "zero". This is a "tare" weight function- it basically just compensates for the weight of the pan. It should now read 0.0 with the empty pan sitting on it. Proceed to weigh charges. Periodically place the empty pan on the scale; it should still read zero. If it doesn't, press the Zero button to re-zero.

On my scale, I calibrate it with the two weights supplied. I remove the weights and the dispenser automatically zero's. It's calibrated. I then put the pan on it, then zero it. After every charge is thrown, I put the empty pan back on the scale and it automatically zero's before throwing the next charge. I guess your 750 doesn't automatically zero when you return the empty pan to the scale?

My question, do I need to till check the pan weight as you described above? I guess it's still a good idea to do so. It only takes a few grains of powder to change the weight. I thought about getting a scale that measure in .100's, but again with only taking a few grains to change .010's, I don't see the advantage.

Just curious

[davemuzz]

To contine with the hijacking, concerning the powder charging...... :-\.....I use the RCBS ChargeMaster 1500. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/772151/rcbs-chargemaster-1500-powder-scale-and-dispenser-combo-110-volt The only time I have found a problem with this unit is if I happen to have a fan on during the summer, or if I have my heater with a blower on during the winter months when I am reloading in my garage. (A vented ceiling heater....don't worry guys....I'm not trying to ignite my house!!)

I have found that a small constant "breeze" will effect the scale. But, other than that, I always put the empty powder holder on the scale, then turn on the scale and it does it's start-up and goes to zero. I've never had a problem with it....and I usually go thru the zero process once a month, and I will on occasion toss on one of my weight checks just to double check the scale's accuracy.

My scale is now three years old and it's (knock on wood) still working fine.

FWIW

Dave

[barrel-nut]

@ Dennis
I think our scales work exactly the same, except yours may not drift like mine.
I too calibrate using the supplied weights, then put the empty pan on the scale, and press ZERO. It now reads 0.0. When I lift the pan from the scale, it reads "-114.5", since my pan weighs 114.5 gn. When I put the empty pan back on it, it should automatically read 0.0. Any deviation from this, ie. "-114.6" when i lift the pan or "0.1" when I set it back on, is cause to reset the ZERO button. I hope that makes it clearer.
From reading customer reviews on Midway USA and Cabelas, it sounds like the 1500 you have is a better scale than my 750, so yours may not have these issues. And yes, Dave, definitely turn off the ceiling fan before using. Also, Dave your "avatar" photo cracks me up!

Quinny, how did those 175's do today?

[davemuzz]

Barrel-Nut..... ;D...Thanks. My brother gave me the idea to post my pic...http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/davemuzz/UGLYBROTHERS.jpg


I thought of posting one of me working.......http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/davemuzz/WORK-AMMO-b.jpg.......but the general consensus was....maybe not so much. ;D

[barrel-nut]

That's hilarious! Scary thing is, I KNOW people like that! Good folks....

Quinny, any luck with the 175's?

[Dennis]

when i lift the pan or "0.1" when I set it back on, is cause to reset the ZERO button

This makes a lot more sense! ;)

I will definetly watch this in the future!



Scary thing is, I KNOW people like that!

LMAO ;D

[Quinny]

Quinny, any luck with the 175's?


I made up some of the 175's today using a couple of different powder charges from 42.5gn to 45gn of ADI 2208 (Varget). It was very windy out there - like 30-40mph which made things very difficult. The 175s seemed to shoot pretty well despite the conditions. I think that another round of testing may be needed to draw any conclusions with them, but it does look promising.

[barrel-nut]

Good- always good to have another reason to head back to the range!

[kdvarmint]

Quinny,

I shoot a Varmint Model 12 FVSS in 308 26" barrel with a Bell & Carlson Varmint/Tactical stock, not bedded. I did well with 168s like you. Then I read where 168s lose stability beyond 600 yds. Did more research and found this to be an accepted belief/opinion among many. I shoot groundhog out to 1k. (well shoot at anyway) With 168s over 500yds only had 2 kills, and at 6 to 800 I was all around them with no hits. After reading that beyond 600 most recommended 155s or 175s I went to work on a new load. In short I did best with Varget,fed 210m primers,lapua brass,and 155 SMK. 175SMK did well but 155s were a little better. Results, I can shoot 3 shot groups in the .2s. Consistently shoots 5 shot groups in .5s. Killed 3 hogs over 700 yds. with limited hunting time, and many very near misses well over 600. Hope the 175s do you good.

As for scales. With mine I can have NO air movement. Ceiling fan must be off and if its breezy out I have to shut the window. I have to be careful with the scale in front of me that I don't BREATH on it. I use 2 pans, 1 always on scale for weighing and with the other one I get a charge from the powder drop, then zero the scale, pour powder into pan on the scale,weigh, trickle some as necessary, pour back into 1st pan, put empty pan back on scale, zero, then weigh again, if satisfied fill case. I do this with EVERY load cause my scale will drift. All loads are weighed twice. I'm sure I will wear out my zero button but oh well. Hope some find this helpful.

kd.

[Quinny]

That is interesting what you say about the 168s losing stability over 600yds, I have never heard that report before. I have read quite a few people shooting the Savage F/TR recommending the 168gn SMK, which is the reason that I gave them a try. I have shot my rifle at 880yd with all 12 shots on target, having never shot at that distance before, and never shot lying down before.

All of the 155gn pills I have tried have not been very good in my rifle. I have not tried the 155gn Lapua's though, they may be worth a go. I will try another round with the 175s and see how they go.

[kdvarmint]

I cannot confirm the 168 story. Just what I read and thought I'd pass it along and my experience. You cannot argue with impacts on the mark. If they work for you, shoot em baby shoot em. Hope you nail down a tack driver load.

kd.

[bbradford71]

When you are doing your prep work before reloading are you checking the head space of the shoulders on your brass, are you weighing your brass and bullets for consistency? All this might sound a little anal but it all does factor in, it could be the difference between a .5 MOA and a .25 MOA shooter. I have also found that high caliber rifles especialy msgnum rifles shoot better groups out at 200 yards than at 100.

Just a thought