Odd Conversation With Savage

[wbm]

Called Savage customer service to find out about proof marks on barrels. The answer I got was "well we don't do proof marks." I said "well what is the "x" mark on my barrel for?" Answer. "That's were someone worked on it along the way." "Well what do the other proof marks on barrels mean?" "We don't do proof marks but there are usually marks under the barrel nut on rifles." "Well what are they for....what do they mean?" "It's where someone worked on it along the way."

Gave up at this point.

Anyone know what various proof marks mean?

[Eric in NC]

I don't think their are actual "proof" marks as they said.

The marks just indicate who worked on it or what shift it was worked on during or what quarter of the year it was made etc. (you might be "A" and I might be "G", "9" might mean September, etc.). This is so they can keep track of who did what and when if there are problems down the road.

"Proof" marks (as in acceptance after being fired with an over pressure round) are usually on European or military guns - not commercial pieces.

[dcloco]

The marks you are referring to are actually the operator initial(s) at some point in the manufacturing process.

One set of initials ALWAYS seems to chamber barrels off center. No kidding....if I see these initials, the chambers are off.

Believe another member posted, some time back, that "xx" should GIVE UP on chambering barrel blanks.

[sharpshooter]

If you talked with one of the guys in customer service you'll find they know less about the guns than you do. Their training only goes so far.
The proof mark... and yes they all have a proof mark, is a stamped SP and a number(example: SP7) The SP means "Savage Proof", the number denotes the person who actually did the proof firing. Proofers have a number and a stamp assigned to them.
Another mark usually visible,(example: A21) is the person who function tested the rifle after assembly.
All barrels will have a caliber code stamped somewhere close the nut, and on the bottom of the receiver between the lug and front action screw hole.
Example: M,=.223. Any letter with a circle around it indicates stainless steel. These are stamped by the person installing the barrel.
There are several other marks put on by the assembler, the barrel staightener, and inspectors.
There is a series on vertical numbers on the underside of the tang that are manufacuring code. This tells information about what machine,operator,shift lot of raw materials and other pertinent info to track quality control. This code was implemented about 2008 when Savage went to the new Okuma maching centers.
The serial # is the last thing to be engraved on the gun, as a matter of fact is is the last operation period. It is done fully assembled right before packing.

[Eric in NC]

Stand corrected by the man himself - didn't think any US makers actually "proofed" them anymore. Do they use an overpressure load or just factory ammo? Knew they test fired them but didn't think they did the overpressure thing.

[bigedp51]

U.S commercial proofing standards require a dry proof test cartridge be fired in each new firearm. Military NATO EPVAT Testing requires an oiled proof test cartridge be fired, the oiled test proof cartridge doubles the bolt thrust and simulates combat conditions. (Water in chamber and bore) If the oiled proof cartridge causes excessive bolt setback the the rifle fails proof testing. (.002 to .003 set back)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308proof-1.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308-1-1a.jpg

This is why if anyone tells you to oil or grease your cartridge cases to fireform them, you should grab a ball peen hammer and hit them over the head and proof their skull for any brains.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boltthrust.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oil-lube.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube.jpg

Do any of you require more proof about proof. ::)

[wbm]

Thanks Fred! Maybe the "X" means X marks the spot. Think I'll call tomorrow and ask "what spot?" ;D

[sharpshooter]

XX is caliber code for 7-08. Single X is older for .264 Win Mag.

[Jeff518]

The marks you are referring to are actually the operator initial(s) at some point in the manufacturing process.

One set of initials ALWAYS seems to chamber barrels off center. No kidding....if I see these initials, the chambers are off.

Believe another member posted, some time back, that "xx" should GIVE UP on chambering barrel blanks.


I don't suppose you could link us to that old thread? Or share the initials again? Or PM me if making that public is a problem?
Thanks,
Jeff

[sharpshooter]

That is nothing more than hearsay....

[SuperChuck]

Hmmmmm, the mysterious "X-factor Barrel" I think I have seen that one before :-)

SC








Thanks Fred! Maybe the "X" means X marks the spot. Think I'll call tomorrow and ask "what spot?" ;D

[efm77]

Agree with bigedp51 on most of what he said. I never oil my cartridges and always dry my chamber with degreaser before shooting and have never had any problems. But riddle me this, if you're supposed to keep a thin film of oil on your action and bolt both for their lubrication as well as rust prevention, then how do you possibly keep some oil from transferring to the cartridge and thus to the chamber when a cartridge is pushed from the action into the chamber?

[bigedp51]

efm77

A Remington tech rep once told me the quote below when he saw a friends over oiled shotgun.........
(my friend was a machinist and over oiled everything)

"Put as much oil on your Remington firearm as you want to when cleaning your rifle, then take a dry clean rag and wipe off as much oil as you can, and your firearm will still have more lubrication than it needs"

Oil attracts dirt and dust, dirt and dust attract moisture, moisture and air cause rust, and in a museum firearms on display are not oiled they are waxed with a neutral PH wax to keep moisture and air off the metal components.

During the American Civil War storage "cosmoline" was made from the triple mix of 1/3 raw linseed oil, 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 turpentine. This same mixture was rubbed on firearms in use as a protective "raincoat" to protect the firearm from the elements. And finally the woman of the house used this same triple mix as furniture polish to protect "her" cherished belongings.

Bottom line, only a few parts of your rifle need to be lubricated and the rest of the rifle only needs "protection" from the elements.

[wbm]

During the American Civil War storage "cosmoline" was made from the triple mix of 1/3 raw linseed oil, 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 turpentine.

Many years ago Organic Gardening Magazine did a test on the above mixture against the more modern finishes such as Polyurethane, Varnish, Thompson's etc. During the several years the wood was in the weather the old mixture was the best. How bout that! The danger is that the mixture has to be heated so that the wax melts and mixture penetrates the wood.

[bigedp51]

wbm

You heat the mixture to make it, "BUT" you apply it just like any paste car wax, with the triple mix you have raw linseed oil, beeswax and turpentine is the evaporative solvent. Again the triple mix does NOT require a heat source to be applied, the oil will soak into wood and the wax will remain on the surface and the turpentine will evaporate.

On metal the oil and wax will both stay on the surface and dry just like a car wax will, on my milsurps below I apply it to all the wood surfaces and also all the metal surfaces, the bolt and bolt raceway are oiled and greased prior to shooting.


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6390.jpg

[efm77]

That's what I do. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. A thin film of oil is just that, a protective coating. I never over oil them and always wipe them down. My question still hasn't been asnwered. Even if you wipe it down with a dry cloth there will still be a very thin film. So what I'm asking is can that transfer to the cartridge and then to the chamber or is it too small of an amount to worry about. My guess is the latter. I'm not talking about one that's dripping. I'm talking wiping it down with an oiled rag and then wiping it off with a dry one. Seems there would still be an ever so slight amount that could possibly get on the cartridges.

[bigedp51]

The entire cartridge or chamber would need coated to keep the cartridge from gripping the the chamber walls at this point all the thrust would be directed to the bolt face at twice the normal thrust. If enough oil or grease is present it would be forced forward into the bore and increase chamber pressure even more. (proof test cartridge dripping oil is used during NATO EPVAT proofing)

Below from the 1929 "Textbook of Small Arms" British War Office.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/TBOSA-2.jpg

Also see Varmint Al's website.
Rifle Chamber Finish & Friction Effects
on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning.

http://www.varmintal.net/a243z.htm


NOTE: The information I have provided in my above postings is to make anyone think twice before following anyones advice about lubing your cartridge cases for the purpose of fireforming cases. There is a reason why headspace increases on firearms and bolt thrust is the major cause.

[efm77]

Thanks bigedp51. No need to keep giving references. I agree with you and understand the concept. I was merely concerned about a small amount of oil being able to get onto the cartridge from the receiver and whether or not that would affect its ability to grip the chamber wall. If I understand you correctly then whatever minute amount might get on to the brass from the receiver/magazine would not be enough to keep it from gripping the chamber so long as the chamber was dry? So in other words, if you wipe down your receiver with an oily rag to protect it from rust and then wipe it dry with a dry rag/papertowell etc., leaving only a slight film for corrosion protection, and dry the chamber with degreaser, then the cartridge should have plenty of grip?