Full Length Sizing vs Neck Sizing

[fgw_in_fla]

Can anyone explain the differences / benefits to neck sizing as compared to full length sizing? Or, if you can aim me in the right direction on where I can find an article or other info to look up. Recently, I met a few 600 & 1000 yd. guys at my local range. Some of the info they imparted on reloading & shooting, rifle set up & control was very informative. I recently overheard some discussion about the subject of neck sizing but, didn't have the opportunity to catch one of them. If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be much obliged.
Thanks in advance,
Frank

[dacaur]

neck sizing is easier on the cases, meaning you will be able to reload them more times and you dont have to use lube if you are using carbide dies. But you can only use neck sizing if the cases were fired from your gun, and after loading will be fired only in the same gun. You cant take brass fired in one gun, neck size it and fire it in another, because when the brass is fired, it fireforms to that specific chamber. I only have one .308, so I use neck sizing only when I reload. If I were to pick up range brass, I would have to full length re-size the first time, then I could just neck size after that. My dad has two 30-06 autoloaders, since its tough to keep the brass separate between the two guns, he has to full length size all of his brass.

[fgw_in_fla]

@dacaur Thanx.. Some of what you just mentioned I already knew, except for the parts between "neck sizing" at the begining and "brass" at the end. All my cartridges & brass stay with the rifle it was made for so, I guess I have that part ok. I'm looking to get a little more use out of my brass. Right now, all brass that's been fired 3 to 4 times looks a little fat near the case head before sizing. I've noticed each time I clean & size it feels like I need to apply more force on the press with each cycle of loading & firing, if that makes any sense. By the way, fat near the case head means the diameter of the case above the case head or the thick part where the primer goes.
I'm just a little worried that one of these days I pull the trigger & have to pick small pieces of brass from the side of my head.
Is there any good method of determining when a case is ready for the scrap bucket of is it something that comes with experience or going by feel.

I was shooting next to a guy a few weeks ago & his brass looked like he found it in the parking lot. All dirty & tarnished. We got to talking about reloading & I asked how he determined when a case was done. He said when they fall apart. When they crack or break in the press. He asked me why I shined my brass & I said so I could inspect it easier & it looked a whole lot nicer. For me, I don't mind the extra work & it does look a lot nicer.
Whatcha think?

[dacaur]

I check my cases each time I load them, looking for any splits or cracks, which is really all you can do. When you say you worry about brass in the side of the head, that makes be think you are shooting an autoloader. You can only neck size if you are shooting a bolt, single shot, or lever gun, not a semiauto. If you are lucky you might get away with it in an autoloader for 1 or 2 loadings, but eventually you are going to get stoppages if you dont full length re-size.... At least, thats what "they" say....

As for cleaning, All my brass looks better than brand new after a few hours in the tumbler, so I dont see why anyone who reloads would have dirty brass, thats just going to get your gun dirty....

[darkker]

a little more, depth, of explaination:
Full-length sizing, squeezes the entire length of the case down to SAAMI minimum dimentions. Where as neck, or collet, sizing; only re-sets the neck and shoulder.
What this does is causes the brass to grow, or lengthen more(when full length sizing), because of the total amount of brass being worked. When squeezing it in a die, the only place for the displaced brass to move is length-wise. When neck sizing, the rate of brass growth, is substantially less.

Just because you neck size, doesn't mean that you cannot use that brass in another gun. It MAY be the case, but ISN'T absolutly the case.
As far as articles that you can read about the differences....Every reloading book I have talks about the differences. Richard Lee, for obvious reasons, has much more depth on the subject. Modern reloading, second edition. Open the cover, and read straight until you get to the load data; then skip to the correct page for your cartridge.

[82boy]

If you do a search you will find a ton of information.
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,37495.0.html

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,35219.0.html

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,44131.0.html

[GaCop]

Neck sizing with a standard full length sizing can be done ( I did it for many years in a hunting rifle). Problem with using the F/L die to neck size is the neck runout can go south. I've encountered runout as high as .009". Not conductive to good accuracy in a varmint or bench rifle. The Lee collet die, sizing the neck around a mandrel, can eliminate excessive runout, minimizes the case growth and is easy on the brass.

[wbm]

runout can go south.

Surely you mean North. ;D

The FLR vs Neck Size depends on what you are shooting. In a 6PPC neck sizing is all you need...the brass just lasts forever in a properly done chamber. On the other hand, if you load for gas guns then FLR is the rule. I have a M96 Swede that shoots much better with FLR brass but my other bolt rifles shoot better with neck sized brass.

[GaCop]

runout can go south.

Surely you mean North. ;D

The FLR vs Neck Size depends on what you are shooting. In a 6PPC neck sizing is all you need...the brass just lasts forever in a properly done chamber. On the other hand, if you load for gas guns then FLR is the rule. I have a M96 Swede that shoots much better with FLR brass but my other bolt rifles shoot better with neck sized brass.


I fully agree with neck sizing but using a collet die for benchrest rifles or neck runout can go "west" (we can then blame bad groups on Kalifornia). :D

[Grit #1]

If you are using a bushing style neck sizing die (I use Redding Dies exclusively) You can control a whole lot more than how long the brass will last.
Neck tension can be controlled by the sizer button. Some rifles like .002 neck tension some like .004 neck tension. I have one "tight neck" .308 that likes .001 neck tension. I have to be careful how I handle the cartridge because with that little neck tesion the bullet can slip. This rifle is a single shot 21lb F-class rig.
The other thing that you can control is how much of the neck is sized. I have several rifles that I neck size only about 1/2 to 3/4 of the neck's overall length. This also creates a second small headspace shoulder.
Additionally you will find that with some cartridges, after a few firings, the bolt handle will become hard to close. At this point I use a "Bump" die to push the shoulder back a little and sometimes I neck size the entire length of the neck at that time.
Hope it helps.
Best regards,
Grit

[fgw_in_fla]

Well it looks like I got a few other questions answered before I asked them. Thanks for the most valuable info especially the links to other info on this site. One of these days I'll remember to use the search feature... one of these days. Both of my Savages are bolt rifles - a 30.06 & a 270 win. They are my most favorite rifles I own. They're dead nut accurate although, I'm still trying to come up with a bullet / load combo to make my '06 happy. I zero my scopes to 200 yds. & use the 100 yd. line for testing bullets & the like. Recently, I took some info I found on this site & started loading 180 grain Nosler BT's and I'm looking to go to maybe 200gr or 220 gr bullets. I've had excellent results with the Nosler BT's. I think the attempted goal here may be to have a .270 with lower grain bullets & the '06 with heavier grain bullets. My 270 loves 130 gr. Noslers. As soon as I figure out how to put up a photo, I'll show everyone a few targets I have in my bullet room. As for my 30.06, It's not as easy to make happy. So far the best I can come up with are 1in. groups - maybe a little smaller. That was with 168 gr. Noslers. I guess I just need to keep on experimenting. My concern & curiosity was about getting as much life out of the brass as possible without getting into trouble.
While we're on the subject, I recently saw some info on Barnes TTSX (blue tip) bullets. The advertisment said to start at least .050 back & work from there. Some of the comments from users were quite impressive. Has anyone here had any experience with them. I'm thinking about trying one of those sampler packs I see advertised in the magazines. Anyone want to throw their 2 cents in the hat?
Thanx To All,
Frank

[dacaur]

My dad uses a 30-06 and has taken lots of deer with it and likes 150gr bullets the best, and personaly, I and a light to mid weight for caliber kinda guy, I dont like anything near the "top of the range: weight wise in anything I shoot.... If I might ask, Why did you choose 270 win and 30-06? I thought they were about the same other than the diameter of the bullet?... the 270 probably shoots flatter and will take almost any game a 30-06 will as long as you dont want to go after moose or bear.... my only rifle caliber now is .308 win. I have been thinking about a second caliber, but would likley want to go a lot smaller (.223) or a lot bigger (.300 or .330 win mag) I think if I had a .270 win and wanted something bigger, I would want to jump up above a 30-06. Just wondering if there is a good reason, or is that just what you happened to find?

[fgw_in_fla]

You may ask....
I got the 30.06 on sale at a gun shop owned by a relative of my wife. Fantastic deal. $385 with a cheapo Simmons that lasted 4 shots. The 270 I stumbled on at a pawn shop for $175. It was in excellent condition. I recall the pawn shop guy mentioning the previous owner bought it, kept it under the bed, went broke & dumped it at a pawn shop. That's how I ended up with it. The '06 sports a new Bushnell Elite, the 270 has a Leupold VxIII. Both are excellent long range shooters as I've been tinkering with them for quite a few years.
Even though they're almost the same caliber for some unknown reason the 270 is much more fun to shoot. It may be the recoil is easier on my old bones.... I don't know. Anyway, after much tinkering, lots of experimenting I have 2 really nice plain jane, stock, (almost) Savage rifles. No big fat barrels, no cool paint jobs, nuthin'. Just plain 'ol fun shootin. I did recently score a new factory .270 barrel for when I finally shoot the rifling out of the old one. I think at that time, I may consider going to a different caliber. You know how it is. No matter what you have, you always want something else.....

[bigedp51]

If you shoot tight fitting neck sized cases you would be doing your rifle a favor if you grease your locking lugs, it will prevent undo wear on the lugs and prevent possible galling. If you look at Accurate Shooter.com you will see them lubing their lugs. ;)

[sharpshooter]

You should grease the locking lugs regardless....and the cocking ramp.

[82boy]

You should grease the locking lugs regardless....and the cocking ramp.


A GREAT BIG +1 !
I greese all of my rifles regardless of chamber, or make.

[fgw_in_fla]

OK..... Getting back to what we were saying.
Someone here mentioned tight case necks. I got the brainstorm a few weeks back, to reduce the diameter of the neck size button thingy inside the die. You know, the button thingy attached to the decapper.
Anyway, after reducing the neck diameter - ie - for my .270 (.277" bullet approx.) - neck diameter was .2745", now reduced to .273". After reducing the neck diameter, I notice my favorite load on 52gr. of H4831 now is no longer as accurate. I had to increase the load to 53.5gr. of H4831. As luck (or fate) would have it, the new powder weight is even more accurate than the original weight of 52gr.
Now, I see some of you calling out neck tension by a number (ex. - .001 or .002, etc...) How are you guys getting that number? I recall reading on this site about measure the neck walls, add the neck diameter, subtract my shoe size, divide by the date, & on & on....
I can't find it again even after doing a search. It was pretty recent, too. How about somebody enlighten the old guy?
Lastly, I finally found a bullet / load combo that my '06 seems to like. I started experimenting with IMR4064 and lo & behold..... I found 50.5gr. of IMR4064 seems to work quite nicely with a 150gr. Nosler BT.
Perhaps after some of the "site gurus" learn me a few things, I'd like to go to another section & find out more about bore lapping and / or polishing. It seems I read & hear equal good & bad about both.
Thanks for all the really cool info you guys (and gals, if applicable) share. When I go to my local shooting range, I have the best shooting Savages of anyone there, thanks to all the cool stuff I've read here.
Thanx again,
Frank

[Slowpoke Slim]

Well since all the Gurus are probably not on yet, I'll give it a go,

;D

When you talk of neck tension as a number, .001, .002, etc, it's referring to the difference in diameter between the inside of the sized case neck and the diameter of the bullet you're seating. So, to your 270, the bullet nominally measures .277, and if you're sized neck diameter is now .273, then you have a neck tension of .004 . Changing neck tension can make a difference not only in accuracy, but in chamber pressure. If you increase neck tension, and change seating depth to say "jam" the bullet in the rifling, you can increase chamber pressure dramatically. Changing nothing else but increasing the neck tension will increase chamber pressures. This can lead to some loads in some rifles to achieve high pressure "early" in the load development.

The most notable for me was dinking around with the WSSM's. Neck tension was quite high, and pressures came on very early in development.

As far as lapping or polishing a bore, "it depends". I usually don't do it, unless I'm working with a problem child barrel. Normally it would be after I've exhausted all reasonable alternatives, and happens right before I pull the barrel and replace it.

[fgw_in_fla]

@ Slim... The reason I ask about bore lapping is I have a new barrel to put on my .270. I've heard much talk & read much about it however, it's 50 / 50 on the yea / nay. I always thought if a piece of metal just came off a machine (ie barrel off a lathe, etc) I always thought it needed final finishing to make for a super smooth surface. I suppose running a few hundred bullets would smooth it out a little, also...

On the neck tension, I understand about pressure build up early or too high, etc. I've had best results with bullets set back .010 - .015 off the lands. The point I was attempting to make, my .270 was "perfect" using low charge of H4831 & a 130gr. Nosler BT. I could do no wrong with it. As soon a I read about reducing the die button diameter to increase neck tension all bets were off. I had to rerun a OCW test and came up with a higher charge to make it happy. I really wasn't expecting that to happen although after it did, it seemed to make sense. I suppose it would make an extreme difference with charges on the high end of the spectrum. All of that notwithstanding, since reducing the neck hole to increase tension on the bullet, it has increased the consistancy substantially. I was getting 3 to 5 shot groups at 100 yds. inside of a 1" square. But, then there was always the pesky "flyer" that would ruin my grouping. Since running a tighter tension, I get far less flyers now.
Some of the things I've read & tried from this site have substantially increased my addiction. My loving wife is already looking for a rehab for Savage Shooters with no luck. Savage addiction truly is harder to break than drugs. Right now I'm using the computer on this site & she's sleeping so she doesn't know. She thinks I'm trying to clean up..... ::)

[82boy]

When most people talk about neck tension, they are usually talking about bushing dies. A bushing die usually unscrews around the top, and a neck sizing bushing slide into the bushing, controlling the amount of neck tension placed on the case.
You are referring to the expander button (Balls.), that is pulled through the case neck when sizing, and majority of bushing dies do not have such a thing.

In a standard die they usually have a large amount of sizing on the case neck (Over size.) and then the expander button opens the case up to a proper size where it will still have tension and firmly hold the bullet. There is a lot of information about expanding balls, take it for what it is worth. Most common belief is that the cause concentricity problems that lead to accuracy problems. The expander ball pulls the neck out of shape, when it pulls back though. Many people remove them, from their dies, some of your better die (Forster.) they unscrew, and can be changed to different sizes.

More than likely what you did was polished out the expander button, cause it to have less friction, and causing less disruption on the case resulting in better accuracy. Depending on how much you took off of it you probley lessoned the amount of tension placed on the round; which can also have several affects. If you are jamming the bullet it would have less tension allowing the bullet to seat back further.

When someone talks about neck tension, they are talking about how much they re underszing the case neck. A simple description would be as this. Using the 6mm PPC as a model most BR shooters have a undersized chamber in there rife, and trim the brass to fit. Most PPC shooters use a .262 neck. So what they do is take the brass where it measures .012 out of the box, and cut it down to where it measures .0095. You take the bullet diameter of .243 and you add both sides of the case measurement (.243+ .0085 + .0085=) and get a total measurement of .260. (This gives then a .002 clearance in the chamber.) There loaded round will measure .260. Now if they was to size that using a .260 bushing they would have 0 neck tension. Now most competitive BR shooters use a .257 sizing bushing, giving them .003 neck tension on the round. (.260-.257= .003) If they go down to a .255 bushing they now have .005 neck tension on the round.