It has to shoot better than this.

[Mudcat]

I just picked up a new 10FCP K in .223 a couple weeks ago. Got the scope mounted last week Konus M30 4.5-12x40 in Leopold rings and 2 pieces bases. Good solid mount checked and rechecked. I had a couple boxes of 68grn HPBT Hornady and several cans of same lot Varget and IMR 4895. LC 09 brass trimmed and FL sized. I have been loading and trying to find a load this rifle likes and have had no luck. It seems like it never gets any better or worse from 24.0 to 25.5 loading .001 off the lands to jumping. CCI or Winchester primers. I tried some 4895 and got no better or worse. I have cleaned and barrel after breaking it in like some say. No copper the barrel stays pretty clean. I have been getting groups from 1.5moa to 1moa but there always seems to be 1 flier. Trickling powder charges to get a consistent charge RCBS beam scale. Heck I can shoot my M1 Garand that well with my thrower loads and pulled bullets with just a sling no rest.
I have removed the stock and reinstalled it per the instructions on here and no POI shift and no improvement in group size. I was going to get some 75grn AMax but no one around here has them in stock. They do have the 75 BTHP though.

Any ideas on what else to try?

[jlcpls]

How many total rounds down the barrel?

I just finished LD on a 30-06 and had similar issues (1-2 MOA + flier) until after almost 50 rounds, then voila. I got a sub MOA load at 58.2 gr of H4350, despite having prior dismal results at 58 and 58.5.

Was wondering if it just needed to get broke in (which I didn't really believe in, previously) or if there was a burr or crown defect that finally got wore down.

I also bedded the action. Had some free float issues I wasn't happy with. (It wasn't a savage)

[wbm]

Switch bullets. Go with the 69g Sierra and see what happens. If yours has a muzzle brake, make sure you don't see any copper where the bullet exits the brake.

[seanhagerty]

Also, if you havent done so, do a ladder test. This will let you know accuracy nodes, to work off of.

Some barrels just need the right bullet to make them tighten up. Keep trying.

[chemist1]

+1 on the 69 sierras.

[Dennis]

I have shot with this exact gun, it should hold 1/4" groups with ease.

As stated above, try different bullets. I personally like 52grn to 55grn with mine and it's a tack driver. The 9 twist should handle 69grns.

Example: I was about to give up on a gun and I was told to try SMK's. I did, instantly I had sub 1/4" groups.

Point, I think it's possible for you to find the bullet your gun likes!

I have rifles that like berger, some like A-Max's, some Lapua's, and some SMK's! They are all different.

[Mudcat]

I have done the ladder tests at 2grn increments with both powders and primers. Although my crono is out of commission from the last battle it took 3 rounds to the body. Darn sight off set from the AR. ::)
212 rounds down the tube so far. Has a muzzle brake and it looks clean and free from copper.
I will try some 69grn sierras I may have some stashed back if not the gun shop is just 8 miles away.

Thanks for the quick responses.

[Dennis]

Again, you have a great rifle, you will find out what it likes!

I will also mention mine loves factory ammo just as much as my reloads!

Factory ammo will also easily hold 1/4" groups @ 100

[82boy]

Try shooting it dirty,
Just about every Savage I have shot shoots better when it is dirty. See how it groups with 25-30 rounds down the tube.

[romulus]

I honestly am not trying to flame you, but the only Konus I have ever seen on the range was owned by one of my buddies. He couldn't get his rifle to shoot (.243) under 2 MOA. Yours is a better model than his was though. He loaded and loaded and loaded. We threw an old weaver on the gun and it started shooting about 0.8"s. Maybe it was just breaking in, but who really knows?

Also, my buddy has a Savage FCP-K .308 that he hasn't really nailed a load down in, but he was shooting 1.1s and getting frustrated so we just pulled the brake. Now it shoots 0.75" all day. Not BR but good for an unrefined load. Maybe shoot without the brake and see.

Like seanhagerty said, I would do a ladder until I found a node - even if it is slower than you want to shoot. I've seen a lot of instances where varminters won't try any load that's any more than 2 grains under max, and sometimes there are very accurate loads slower. If you find a node, small variances in charge weight will have a smaller effect than out of node.

I have also had a situation where SMKs fixed a load I couldn't get under 0.8. Imho the SMKs would be the next projectile to try if you can't get the bullet you want to shoot.

[Murphy]

To Mudcat, I think your seating depth is wrong. Try 5, 3 shot groups starting on the lands and working back in 25thou increments untill you run out of bullet. In my opinion changes less than 25 thou are a waste of components. Don't change your powder charge, select one a little under max that gives you the velocity you want. Varget is a good powder and for best results in a 223 I would use Remington 7 1/2 primers and Lapua brass. If the flyers persist, try a different scope and last of all have your rifle rebedded. Hope this helps as flyers can be very annoying. One last word of advice always do load development under the very best of conditions that is very early in the morning or last thing in the afternoon when wind is less. Regards Murphy.

[Mudcat]

I am going to pick up some SMKs today and go from there. I believe the throat is long in this rifle and the SMKs have a more pronounced taper to the ogive. This may be the ticket after looking and measuring between the 2 bullets last night. I found 18 69grn SMKs last night rummaging through the extra components.
I have had good experiences with Konus pro scopes myself but it is possible for it to be bad. I may try to swap a Nikon on to it if it keeps going like it has. No flame taken it's all good if I can get it to shoot. I may pull the brake that is a thought for sure I have heard mixed thoughts on the brake anyway.

I will work on it today.

[rjtfroggy]

Mudcat I have both a model 10 LE and a model 12 in 223. The 10 has a 20" barrel and with 60gr. Sierra's it shoots in the .19's -.22 @ 100 almost all the time.The model 12 with 26" barrel shoots .25-.28 @ 100 yards. Factory barrels not custom and I only clean when the accuracy drops off.
These are loaded with IMR 4895 worked up to and settled at 24 gr. at .017 off the lands.Personally I found the 223's to be finicky and if it is windy (over 10-12 mph) leave it home and grab something else.

[Mudcat]

I made great improvements today first thing was to check for good seating of the action on the aluminum pillars. The front was not touching the action when torqued down. You can read about it in this thread.http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,45001.0.html
This made my groups more consistent to work with. I tried the SMKs and they did good but I kept trying with the Hornadys and finally got my sweet spot. I repeated the group 4 times and called it good. Shooting prone with bi pod and rear bag. The target has 1/4" grids or 1/4moa at 100 yards.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/mudcat47537/Snapbucket/070C15F4-orig.jpg
This was shot at 100 yards here at home we live in the woods so wind is not usually an issue here.
The load I finally came up with is the 68 grn Hornady HPBT with 25 grns of Varget inside LC08 cases CCI 400 primers Bullet seated at 1.959 off the ogive just touching the lands. I also tried to remove the muzzle brake and got no difference in POI or group size which is good to know. I am happy and will be taking this load out to the 375 yard range hopefully later this week. I am happy for sure.
I believe it was combination of the bad stock bedding, and finding the right load mainly seating depth. Thanks for all the help!

[romulus]

I've always wondered why some rifles have POI shift and some don't. My .30-378 only shifted .5" straight up and for hunting with guides I was fine with that. I've seen a few .308s that don't shift but group better without it. It might have mattered at long ranges but I don't hunt like that.

Glad to know you're getting it tuned. There's nothing more frustrating than a rifle that won't shoot, but getting one stacking dots is worth the trouble. Can't wait to see you're medium range targets.

[Pete K.]

Mudcat,
Why a brake on a .223? Your set up has to be heavier than my 12 VLP and I hardly feel any recoil. If you have a 1 in 9 twist first try some Black Hills from Fulton Armory. The 52 gr. match is the least expensive and 50 per box. My 1 in 9 twist loves this stuff followed by the 69 gr. SMKs. Off a heavy front rest with rear bag and a decent scope your rifle should show at least 1/2 moa if your using consistant cheek weld, trigger squeeze, breath control etc. Take your time between rounds so as not to rush or push shots or run out of breath and tire.
At 100 yards I can sight on golf balls on the berm in 3 to 5 seconds and turn them into dust with the 52 grain match hp running 3400 fps. Is your parrelex dialed out? Just wondering...

Pete K.

[handirifle]

I just read an article on Handloader magazine, that made HUGE sense to me, and it pertains to your issues and many of the comments made here regarding the problems you're having.

The article was based on case uniformity, primarily at the neck and mouth. He really cut down the steps of deburring flash holes and the like, because his reasoning was that the case neck is the FIRST point of contact with the bullet and has a huge effect on how the bullet gets started down the barrel. While I may not agree 100% with all of the article, he has good points.

Another point regarding loads, was the bullet alignment MAY have a lot to do with how well the seating die conforms to that particular bullet shape. He has discovered that the more closely the seating die matches the shape of the bullet, the more consistant it will be in aligning the bullet. He feels THAT may have more to do with which bullet the barrel "likes" than the barrel itself. It could be more an issue of what the seating die likes.

He suggested 2 ways to look for potential issues. One, was after trimming and chamfering the case mouth, look at it closely under bright light. The one in the picture show it was obviously thinner in one area than in the rest and the bullet could easily sit lopsided in the neck.

The second, which I have not tried, was to lay the loaded round, flat on a mirror, and roll it around. He says that bullet wobble as small as .005" can be detected that way. Haven't tried but but wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, just thought you might want to look at some of these issues in addition to the others. If the dies and the bullets do not get along, might not matter what powder bullet combo you use.

It all seems pretty logical to me.

[Mudcat]

Mudcat,
Why a brake on a .223? Your set up has to be heavier than my 12 VLP and I hardly feel any recoil. If you have a 1 in 9 twist first try some Black Hills from Fulton Armory. The 52 gr. match is the least expensive and 50 per box. My 1 in 9 twist loves this stuff followed by the 69 gr. SMKs. Off a heavy front rest with rear bag and a decent scope your rifle should show at least 1/2 moa if your using consistant cheek weld, trigger squeeze, breath control etc. Take your time between rounds so as not to rush or push shots or run out of breath and tire.
At 100 yards I can sight on golf balls on the berm in 3 to 5 seconds and turn them into dust with the 52 grain match hp running 3400 fps. Is your parrelex dialed out? Just wondering...

Pete K.


I have not bought any store bought ammo in many years except for my AKs and shotguns. I bought the rifle with the brake so I would get the threaded barrel for a suppressor. My rifle weighs in at 9.5 lbs which is lighter than some of my other rifles. I seldom use a bi pod let alone a rest. I shoot with what I will take to the field and we all know it is very hard to bring that concrete shooting bench with us and lug it around all day. :) But I have been using a bi pod and rear bag from prone with working up a load for this rifle as that is how I plan to do most of the shooting this rifle will see. I am just fortunate that my reloading bench is 30 steps from my shooting mat. Makes it very convenient for sure.
As you can see by my picture I posted I did finally get a load that was suitable at under 1/2 moa. I will use this for a while and try to get some data worked up before a match in 2 weeks.

Handirifle interesting stuff I will have to pick that issue up. Do you remember which issue it was? I usually watch my case prep pretty close and am always looking for ways I could either streamline or improve it.

Looks like I may get to the range Thursday evening if all goes well to try it out at longer ranges.

Again thanks for all the helpful comments and suggestions. I am new to this site and have already learned a ton on here. I am looking forward to learning more and possibly helping out when I get the chance.