What to do?

[alphapygmy]

So I built a 338-06 and had it Duracoated. I checked the head space several times with both a GO and NOGO gauge before I had it coated. After putting everything back together I load up some rounds in new Weatherby 338-06 brass for break-in. Almost half the rounds fail to fire. The misfires all have a primer strike but I don't have a tool to measure the depth. When I get home I use a comparator to measure the head space on the fired and unfired brass as well as the head space gauges. The new Weatherby brass is several thousands shorter (2.041) than the GO gauge (2.044) and the fired brass measures 2.047. So am I correct in guessing the brass is several thou. under SAAMI minimum chamber dimensions? The bolt closes fine on the GO and wont close at all on the NOGO and fired brass measures in between the two gauges so I'm pretty sure the gun is head spaced properly. Do I have to go through the pain of fire forming the short brass so they properly fit the chamber? I was looking to sell the rifle and in the interest of full disclosure, when I mention this, people run away. Should I fire form the brass and send it with the gun or keep my mouth shut because I don't think it's a gun problem but the brass instead? I had the gauges so people could check the head space. Sometimes, rightfully, people are nervous about home built Savage re-barrel jobs. This is the fifth Savage I've built and I've never had this issue. Sorry about the long rambling! Any ideas?

[darkker]

This could be many things.
First of all is the brass. The 338WM/7RM/264WM is NOT a Weatherby case. Are you using Weatherby BRAND cases, or a Weatherby case??
Second, are you sure that your primers are good? Are they seated properly?
What is the firing pin protrusion? Have you measured, or changed your firing pin spring?
If you can't get ignition, it's kind of hard to fire form...

[gotcha]

Pygmy, Same questions as above. Your HD SP gauge apparently measures from shoulder yet you mention Weatherby brass (belted magnum) the 338-06 is a non belted case (30-06). so, I'll assume the non-belted 30-06 case is HD spacing on shoulder. You say your fired case is LONGER than the Hd Sp gauge. Did you deprime the fired case before measuring ? This could very well be the reason your fired case measures longer. Remove the de-capping stem from the die & gently tap out the primer & re-measure.......... The best way to fire form is to seat the bullet to touch the lands so the cartridge doesn't rattle around in the chamber to the extent that the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward w/o ignition. The hd sp on unfired brass will vary a few thou. causing some to fire okay and others won't. Use the split case neck trick to establish bullet seating depth. Was your bolt also duracoated? Maybe some over spray in FP hole? How long since the bolt was diassembled & cleaned ? If the indent on the primer of the fired cases is visually deeper than the primer of the cases that didn't fire, seating bullets to the lands will probably solve your problem. Just a few ideas. Hope it helps :)

[earl39]

Your head space gage should be a standard 30-06 gage with the no go gage also standard for the '06. After checking and double checking and all is right then just do like gotcha said and fireform your brass with the bullet seated long to hold everything in place. I haven't had this problem with mine but i made all my brass from once fired military '06 brass. If you want to sell the rifle anyone that buys it should have enough sense to know it is a rebuild and not a factory rifle (savage has chambered no rifles in 338-06 to date). If you reheadspace on the brass and the next lot is longer then you can't get it to chamber. Just fireform with 250 grain bullets and a light to mid-range load jamming the bullets and i think you will be surprised just what your 338-06 will do.

Gary

[alphapygmy]

The brass is Weatherby brand stamped 338-06 A-SQ. The firing pin protrusion was .062 and the same box of primers had no issues firing in my 338 Fed. or .260. Also I used the same tool and shell holder to prime those 3 different cartridges. I'll list all the measurements I took from gauges and case.

New unsized brass 2.041
GO gauge (30-06) 2.044
fired brass 2.047
NoGo gauge (30-06) 2.049

The fired cases were de-primed before measuring and the bolt was clean, very lightly oiled and had no over spray. I'm still thinking it's a brass length vs head space issue. I had a 338-06 Imp. in an Encore rifle I had to fire form cases for a while back. This time I went with the regular 338-06 so I wouldn't have the hassle of fire forming. Oh well. I think in the next week or two I'll fire form 10 cases and see what they measure afterwards and see if I get any misfires. At least then if I sell it it has brass that won't cause misfires.

[gotcha]

Pygmy, I empathize! But, it just doesn't seem possible that fired brass could be longer than hd sp gauge unless locking lug on bolt is compressing slightly on ignition or hd sp gauge shoulder angle doesn't match shoulder angle of chamber. The Stoney point/Hornady comparators are notoriously inaccurate. They will show difference between a fired case & unfired case But the overall measurement will be inaccurate. Just compare your chamber drawing meas. to the reading you're actually getting. hd sp gauges will also vary in meas. from mfg to mfg....... On F/L sized brass head space will actually change over a 4 or 5 day period due to spring back. Long, ( compared to spec) hd sp gauge. W/ short (compared to spec) brass ? I dunno. But I think I'd get brass from another source & give that a try...... Does the f/f brass chamber easily?

[Werewolf]

338-06 is just 30-06 necked up right? I would see if I could get a new piece of remington 30-06 brass and compare it to the weatherby. I have been looking into building a 338-06 and I remember reading on another forum that weatherby has had problems with this caliber due to headspace issues, to the point of having a recall. You may have gotten a batch of older out of spec brass.

[alphapygmy]

Okay, I loaded up 10 rounds with the bullets slightly jamming the lands. No misfires at all, typically out of 10 using the new brass I would get 3-4 misfires. Measured the brass and they ran 2.045-2.046. Firming up my opinion that the new factory brass is just too short and moving forward with the strike of the firing pin.

Reply to Werewolf-I did a few searches and found some posts like you mentioned concerning undersized Weatherby brand brass. It appears to be made by Norma and had more than a few complaints about being too soft?

Reply to gotcha-The fired brass can be longer than the GO gauge if the barrel was not completely tight against the gauge and the headspace ended up longer than the gauge. So if my GO gauge is 2.044 and the newly fired brass is running 2.046-2.047 I would guess things weren't tight by a thou or two. Thus the fired brass would measure longer yet the bolt won't close on a NOGO gauge. Instead of a rifle with a minimum tolerance headspace I have a dimension in the middle of the tolerance range. I think with the Hornady comparators they are great for measuring relative changes in the brass. Growing up working in my dad's machine shop then working as a machinist for a while I'm proficient and comfortable using measuring devices. Technique can make a big difference in the readings people get. But like you said brass can spring back over a period of time.

Thanks all!

[gotcha]

pygmy, Sounds like Werewolf is on to sumpin' :) NOT going to get into a pixxin' contest on other details. Just happy you seem to have found root of case problem. Itty bitty groups to ya'